A little venting to start my week

My guild has had a bit of a setback.  Maybe I’m opening myself to abuse here, but we’ve found ourselves wiping on Magmaw quite a lot.  Not even on heroic mode.  I mean Normal-mode, 10-man Magmaw.

I know that its a fight that its easy to screw up.  It only takes one person standing in the wrong place to wipe the raid.

Whenever a raid wipes, the first thing every raider should do is ask himself what he could have done better.  Reflect on how you could have positioned yourself better, or how you could have maximized your throughput better, or how you could have used cooldowns better.  We all try to analyze how we contributed to the wipe.  Here’s what is frustrating for me about Magmaw… and its not something I ever said during the raid.

Its an easy fight for melee dps, so the wipes are never my fault.

There – I admitted it, and I sound like a jerk.  I don’t want that statement to come off as me claiming that I am better than the other players.  Quite the contrary.  I feel like that fight is unusually demanding on ranged players and especially on healers while being exceptionally easy on melee dps.

All I have to do as melee dps is an uninterrupted rotation, then jump on his back and chain him, then dps the head.  Repeat.  Its almost impossible for me to make a mistake.  In fact, I would go out on a limb and say that there was nothing I could have done better on any of our attempts that would have improved the outcome.

So when we wipe once or twice, I shrug it off as “it happens”.  When we wipe 5-6 times I start to get frustrated.  Its annoying because those wipes are not of my doing.  There is no way I could have done anything to improve my performance or prevent the wipe.  After the wipe, I try not to say anything in chat or in vent because I don’t want them to think I am being critical, when their role is harder then mine.

I much prefer a fight where my role is as demanding as everyone else’s.  Then I can share in the difficulties and also in the triumphs.  Then I can use my skill to have a real effect on the outcome.  I hate it when an entire fight hinges on one person or on a single moment of error.

I’d be happy if I never saw Magmaw again.  Its an easy fight for me, but I dislike the fact that it gets me frustrated with my guild, which I love dearly.


17 Responses to “A little venting to start my week”

  1. 1 Kayeri
    March 28, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    You don’t sound like a jerk. You sound like someone who knows your job and knows you are doing it right. If the raid is discussing what went wrong in a wipe and the RL feels it necessary to check with each of us, I will say what I was doing and that I thought I was doing it fine, but if anyone saw something, tell me. That pretty much covers it. With Cata bosses, yes, it is very easy for one mistake to wipe the raid, it’s a fact. Chances are the person causing it, if it’s not just random mistakes, knows it but is afraid to speak up.

    Hope it works out for you, but we all have our re-noobish nights. Ours was on Omnotron the week before last… took us several tries when we’d already dropped them repeatedly. Last week we had some issues on Atramedes, too, but then we discovered the bug reports on him.

  2. March 28, 2011 at 6:50 pm

    I caused a wipe! There I said it! Actually I said it right after I did it. I was trying to click on a Lightwell and ended up mounting Magmaw by mistake. By the time I realized what happened it was too late… besides the fact that I was healing. One thing we could do is get in set groups ASAP.

    This is especially important for the healers IMO. Healing is a team effort and it is really hard to know when a fellow healer may need a little help unless you play with her/him for a bit and get used to his or her playstyle. Especially when you have an OP Super Healing Druid on the team 🙂 Better communication between the healers and clear concise healing assignments should help.

    Believe me as a former healing lead I always ask what could be done better especially when it comes to myself and others. I just hope that others can be patient as things work out as the palpable frustration only leads to more anxiety which exacerbates the issue. BTW healers get frustrated too but I will address that on my blog as I don’t want to post a wall of text here. One thing for sure I will be more proactive and vocal when needed as should others. Or maybe I’m just not cut out for healing.

    • 3 Karmakin
      March 29, 2011 at 12:10 am

      Said OP super healing druid is no longer so super 😦

      Oh don’t get me wrong. I’m not bad. I’m pretty good But…

      Here’s what happened. In Wrath, generally there were good answers to damage and great answers to damage. I prided myself, because I’m such a dedicated healer (not as in awesome but as in healing is what I DO), I learned all the great answers. Good answers were still good enough!. I could tank LK and the other healers would do perfectly fine doing their own thing. They might not be great answers, but they were good and people were comfortable with that. Again, not putting anybody down. I prefer things that way.

      In Cata, there’s bad answers and there’s good answers. There’s very little room for “great” anymore. What happened last night, is that we learned a lot more what the good answers are. That’s important, and it should help in the future. But we need to make sure that people understand that’s what healing is like now. It’s bad answers and good answers and you need to be using the good answers, because that’s the challenge that’s presented. Bad answers either run you out of mana or people drop dead from lack of heals.

      I’d say you’re doing very well. It’s just that quite frankly, Magmaw and Magmatron (in particular) are very unforgiving fights for healers, probably too much so, right out of the gate. I also healed Maloriak, and he’s a ton easier to heal. Same with Conclave actually.

  3. March 28, 2011 at 8:00 pm

    I know this feeling very well! There’s nothing more frustrating to me than executing a fight perfectly time and time again and beind held back by punishing raid mechanics or type-c challenges[1] when your strong raid core can normally carry the day.

    With Magmaw in particular, we had a bit of trouble at first with people standing in pillars and getting eaten by parasites. The biggest change for us – and maybe you’re doing this already – was having the entire raid stand on the melee group except for one ranged DPS who was responsible for avoiding flame pillars. When the parasites spawn, everyone swaps to them (including me, at least when I’m playing assassination) and then everyone runs back into melee as soon as they are all dead.

    Even if the kiter gets hit by a pillar, it usually won’t be a wipe, since it’s easy for the healers to top off just one person. As long as the tank swaps are smooth enough, the adds die fast enough, and the chains go out quickly, there’s not really anything you can die to.

    I have a fraps recording from a rogue POV where we use this strategy and I help out on parasites. It’s a few weeks old, but I can throw it on youtube if you think it would be useful.

    [1] http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2011/01/challenging-weakest.html

    • 5 Karmakin
      March 29, 2011 at 12:02 am

      Actually that’s what we were doing. My understanding is that the “proper” strategy is for suckers. You have to be stacked/geared to really have a good attempt at it. As such, either using a kiter or a tank is what most guilds I see use.

      • March 29, 2011 at 12:38 am

        Right, that makes sense. I was just having trouble imagining what else can go wrong on that fight. Pillars are the obvious thing – if that wasn’t the issue, then what?

      • 7 illianeth
        March 29, 2011 at 10:27 am

        This fight is so stupid easy with a tank on the adds. The ranged kite strat seems like it was dreamed up by some masochist and then it was taken for scripture by the wow community. On 10 man, we 2 tank it, sometimes with a Paladin, and sometimes with a Warrior with Glyphed Victory Rush. All 8 other characters stand in melee range and heal/dps. My guild has 2 10 man groups, the other still does the ranged kite/kill, and their attempts take several minutes longer, despite their much better gear. Healing is easy. DPS is beyond easy (ranged just pew pews and moves for ignite).

        The one thing you CAN do is bring a strategy that works to the strengths of your group, instead of using the canned ones all the time.

      • 8 Karmakin
        March 29, 2011 at 11:27 am

        To be blunt, healing. Not all of our healers have adjusted to the new healing models that are present in Cata. We’re starting to get there, but because it’s a lot more scripted than it used to be, as we used to use almost an entirely free-form healing model (which worked for us), it’s a much harder transition than with some other guilds.

        Lava Spew actually is a ton of AoE damage, combined with the fireballs, and depending on the timing of the boss, it can be quite difficult. An example of this, after the Mangle, sometimes he’ll do another spew and sometimes he won’t. The difference in difficulty this adds to a fight is extremely substantial.

      • March 29, 2011 at 2:09 pm

        Aha, then it *IS* Dinaer’s fault, unless he’s already feinting every lava spew!

        Kidding 😉

      • March 29, 2011 at 10:36 pm

        … is feinting every lava spew =)

  4. March 29, 2011 at 10:39 pm

    For he folks that say that the fight is idiot-proof if you use the add-tanking strategy, I have a question.

    How do you keep Magmaw from one-shotting people in melee range when he finishes the spike phase?

    I can’t tell you how many attempts went south because we finish the spike-dps-stage, and then when he drops the main tank he causally one-shots a healer in melee range before going back to phase 1.

    Doesn’t anyone else have this problem?

    • 12 Fubar32
      March 30, 2011 at 11:33 am

      We usually have everyone back off (physically) right before the exposed head phase finishes, so no one gets gibbed before the tank can re-establish aggro.

      • March 31, 2011 at 6:56 am

        That’s what we do as well. That inevitably leads to someone being still out of melee range for the next pillar, which is where things go downhill for us.

        I know that these are mistakes that shouldn’t be made, but its those details that make this fight annoying, and make it so that any group can wipe no matter how easy the strat seems.

      • March 31, 2011 at 2:07 pm

        Do it without a tank on the parasites then? Have the second tank always in melee range of the boss and always second on threat (taunt-juggle before mangle if necessary) and nobody will ever get one-shot.

        Use tricks of the trade to point the adds at the ranged dps who is standing out in the open, fan + deadly brew to control them, and burn them down before they get near anybody. Easy!

    • March 31, 2011 at 10:51 pm

      I uploaded a clip of this fight from my POV. It’s a few months old (Feb 2nd) and I play pretty badly, but it shows how to do the parasites safely as a rogue. We had a boomkin doing pillars.

      No need for play tips, I have improved a lot since then :>

  5. 16 illianeth
    March 31, 2011 at 8:13 am

    When I said it was “Idiot Proof” or whatever, that might have been overstating it slightly, so apologies for that. There are 2 problems with this strat:
    1) the melee swing when he comes up, and
    2) Some parasites may get loose and get in the melee.

    We do attempt to mitigate these issues:
    1) As the “Point of vulnerability” is ending, everyone step back, hopefully out of melee range. Everyone then collapses back to the “melee spot” if you had to move for ignition quickly, making sure your hunter (or any other ranged) isn’t just one step too far back to get a pillar.
    2) Pet controlling classes (frost mages, hunters, unholy DKs) can send pets to stop the parasites from advancing to the melee/healers. They are immune to being infected. This will stop the infection, more parasites spawning, etc.

    Since there is a lot of running around, etc, near the “head phase” as we call it, we just brute force the healing to mitigate both of these things, honestly. There is less damage from the parasites on the ranged, everyone is in range (save the tanks) for nice AoE healing. I just save a 3hp word of glory for whoever gets whacked, that stops them from being killed by a lava spew a second later. The melee swing seems to hit for 90-105k, which doesn’t one shot any of my group, if they’re healed to full during the head phase (which is easy to do, as very little other active healing is required). Naturally, Feint, Resist Aura, etc all help to take the sting out of lava spew and help to ensure your healers don’t run out of gas at 5% (not that I’d know 🙂

    Using this strat, and with practice (as targeting the parasites isn’t the easiest, click anywhere and you’re targeting Magmaw in this room. Our paladin finds it best to keep your back to him), we were able to go from an hour worth of wipes to downing it in an attempt or two each raid reset. I hope things go better for your group, and a few “easy” kills on a boss that has been pestering you with wipes for a while sure does help get everyone on the same page, and motivated to keep going.

  6. 17 Shaday
    April 15, 2011 at 2:17 pm

    Hiya, First of all love this site and second no ur not an a-hole. That said I have found as a rogue it helps the ranged alot if u apply crippling poison to your thrown and when the worms spawn just turn take a couple steps trix the range leader (whoever is kiteing them) and fan a couple times buys them alittle more time. In closeing again i love this site it has been very helpful for me and i hope this helps u.

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Dinaer - 100 Assassination Rogue (US - Sen'Jin)
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