The Death of 25 mans? Nah, just the death of kewl lootz.

I’m a few weeks late getting to this issue.

After Blizzard announced the fact that 10 and 25 man raids will share a lockout in Cataclysm, all over the internet you read about Cataclysm being the death of 25 man raiding.

I’ve read a lot of reactions on a lot of blogs and WoW-related web sites.  There is common theme in a lot of these discussions.  Lots of bloggers and commenters are saying that they prefer 25 man raids because they are “epic” and that its not just because they drop better loot.  Many say that bigger raids are more fun.  Some even cite the 40-man raids as a model.

If there are so many people that feel that 25-man raiding is more fun, then why would it die?  All it takes is 25 people who all agree that big raids are more fun, and there you go.  You’ve got a raid group.

If that is the case, then I don’t see why there won’t be 25 man raids.


I think that some (if not many) of the people lamenting the demise of 25 man raids are being dishonest with themselves.  They make claim that 25-man raiding is more fun because its more “epic,”  but really that’s a false front to justify that they want the better loot.  That’s it.  End of story.  Whatever claims they make about their “love” of 25-man raids go back to loot and e-peening.

I’m not saying that about everyone.  But I suspect that its quite a lot of people.

If fans truly love the large raids because of their size, then they will still do 25-mans in Cataclysm, because they will find others that share their love of large raids. Yes, guilds may reorganize over this as players move around to group with others of like mind.  But 25-man raiding will continue.

The 25-man raids might be guilds that are more casual, and based around friendship and camaraderie rather than progression.  Progression-focused guilds may tend toward 10-man raids because their intensity causes the difficulties in running 25-man raids.  When the raid group is more casual and laid back and forgiving, then the larger number of raid spots seems less of a problem.

I might be wrong.  Its possible that 25-man raids will die a quick and grisly death.  If that happens, though, then it does support my suspicion that it was all about the lewts after all.


9 Responses to “The Death of 25 mans? Nah, just the death of kewl lootz.”

  1. 2 Hamacus
    May 24, 2010 at 3:00 pm

    I do not lament the death of 25’s for the changes in loot. In fact I applaud the fact that 10 and 25 man will drop the same ilevel gear. I bemoan the loss of opportunity. Currently I like to run both on a couple of characters because I have time and opportunity to do so. If they both dropped the same level gear today it would not matter to me.

    Come Cataclysm what are the alternatives? Run 25’s and not progress as far as some would like until you hopefully get people up to speed? At the same time you are done for that lockout period…period! Split in to 10 man groups? Who goes? First come first serve. Best geared…best performers? What metric do you use to decide? Once decided is it set in stone or is there a system to rotate people in and out. Oh and how do you get everyone to buy in? GL/RL headache to be sure.

    As I see it 25’s will not die due to the loss of kewl lootz and e-peening but due to the opportunity cost of 10’s vs 25’s. That is unless Blizzard follows through with the proposed increased amount of loot chances for 25’s. Many people will look at that as measurement of worth for 25’s.

    So maybe it is about loot to some extent.but it is also opprotunity to progress. Even if the loot problem is solved 25’s may die due to the fact that 10’s might become the defacto progression format…Nobody wants to do the same bosses for months at a time but that’s another subject for another time. Too bad because 25’s really are epic.

  2. May 25, 2010 at 6:53 am

    Personally I find that 10 mans are way easier to organise, are a lot less stress, and because of that, they are more fun.
    It may also lead to the death (or decline at least) of PuGs… it’s easier to co-ordinate a 10 man, but with only 1 lockout people will most likely want to raid with the guild. It’s got good and bad points, but imo it’s too much effort to get a 25 man going when you can have 2 full 10 mans going seperately.

  3. May 25, 2010 at 8:25 am

    Nice write-up. 

    There are pros to each. For the 10 mans it’s obviously easier to put together a group. Also some computers just don’t function well in 25s. Now these players won’t feel obligated to lag through a PuG 25 just for badges. They can try to get in a 10 man team and progress like that. 

    25s are said to offer more loot per raider as opposed to the 10 man and yes I do feel like the 25 man are a bit more epic just because of the effort and coordination required.  At the same time Blizzard is saying they are tuning up 10 mans to be on the same difficulty as 25s, not exactly sure what they mean here. 

    With the gated progression who’s to say that some of the top level guilds won’t be doing both 10s and 25s anyways. If the raiding system remains as it currently is and blizzard doesn’t bother implementing hard modes at the time they release a wing, then chances are some guilds will breeze through a new wing anyway and run 10 mans the next week for the achieves if Blizzard still offers both 10 and 25 man achieves.

    My guild is currently trying to figure out which route we want to go, and I honestly doubt we’ll make a decision until after the expansion comes out and we see exactly how all this is going to work.   

    • 5 Strikyn
      May 25, 2010 at 11:26 am

      “25s are said to offer more loot per raider as opposed to the 10 man”

      you summed it up perfectly here. A lot of bloggers I read keep forgetting this part. If done correctly, 25 man raids should be the fastest way to gear up as there will be more loot availalbe per person compared to the 10man versions.

  4. 6 Hamacus
    May 25, 2010 at 2:08 pm

    Not forgotten but “If done correctly” seems to be a lot to ask for lately.

  5. 7 Karmakin
    May 25, 2010 at 4:25 pm

    It’s pretty simple . 25-man raids are much more taxing on my computer than 10-man raids, and thus, I enjoy 10-mans more.

    Now there’s no way that they’re going to perfectly balance the difficulty, but to be honest I’m not overly concerned about that. If some encounters are easier on 10 and some are easier on 25, doesn’t matter that much to me. Neither does the loot.

    The singular lock out does kinda suck, but again, it’s Blizzard moving more and more into an alt-centric game.

  6. May 26, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    I like 10 mans for completely different reasons, but that’s for another post.

    I am certain that there will be many more 10-man raids than 25s. I think that a lot of guilds that have been doing 25s all along will stick with it, in part just to keep the group of friends together. It would be painful (but possible) for my guild to reorganize into two 10-man raids every week. I can see that happening if it boosts progression, though.

    Ultimately, it means that people raid less. It slows progression, so that guilds take longer to clear the current content. I think those are both positive outcomes.

  7. May 27, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    I like 10-mans personally but thats just because it seems to favor a small tight knit group of friends. Your post hits on some great points. I’ve never raided for loot so I don’t care either way honestly. If people do what they want then it shouldn’t matter as long as everyone is having fun doing what they want.

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