Patch 3.2.2 Slaps Rogues Around A Bit

Patch 3.2.2 is on the PTR.  As with all patches, anything that is up now can possibly change as it is tested.

However, even if these changes do not make it to the game in exactly this form, Blizzard has shown that they feel that rogues need to be taken down a peg, particularly in PvP.  The changes are not overall damage nerfs to all rogues, but are pushes to force some situational playstyle changes.

Here are the three announced changes:

(1)  Fan of Knives: The damage done by this ability has been reduced by 30%.

I guess this has been a long time coming.  I don’t think anyone intended rogues to be the top AoE class.  But 30%?  Ouch!

This is of minor importance in PvE, because its mostly useful for trash.  Sure, it will be sad to fall below the mages and warlocks on the trash pulls, but boss fights are where you make your damage meters jump anyway.  I think it really hurts in PvP though, where FoK is used to good effect.  Rogues will still use it to apply poisons to groups of opponents, but it won’t have those sexy damage totals anymore.

(2)  Throwing Specialization: This talent no longer causes Fan of Knives to interrupt spellcasting.

Boo!  Yet another reason to stop using FoK in PvP.

The above two talents send a clear message – rogues are great single-target damage dealers, and should not be running around hitting FoK in every situation during PvP.

(3)  Honor Among Thieves: A 1-second cooldown is now enforced on how often a rogue can gain combo points from his party via this talent.

Again, this has probably been a long time coming.  HaT is a gimmicky build and I suspect that the developers didn’t intend it to play like it does.  Now the question will be asked… is subtlety still (and I hate this term) “raid viable”?  Is that one second delay a crushing blow to the HaT build?

I don’t play HaT, but I suspect it will still work, although you’ll actually have to build up some of your own combo points rather than just hit Eviscerate all the time.  I’ll be watching the analysis on EJ to see their evaluation.


No one likes to see a patch where we get all nerfs and no buffs.  For me, personally, this is very minor since I don’t play HaT and I don’t PvP too often.  I’ll live with the nerf to trash pack damage.  To a rogue that raids in subtlety, this is bad.  To a PvP rogue, this could be really annoying.  How much will these changes affect you?


10 Responses to “Patch 3.2.2 Slaps Rogues Around A Bit”

  1. 1 BlueWater
    August 14, 2009 at 11:16 am

    So basically making fan of knives nearly useless. I guess when blizz said they were happy where rogues were at they meant let’s bring out the nerf bat. If rogues are only good on single targets you start getting back to the question, are they the best option for the raid. Little utility, no buffs and now only bring good dps on single targets. There are several bosses that fan of knives where critical too.

  2. 2 Rochmoninoff
    August 14, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    FoK isn’t useless. Remember a large percentage (more than half?) comes from poison.
    This is more like a 15% nerf than a 30% nerf.
    15% is still huge but so was how OP the ability was.

    Removing the interrupt from the talent will be a bigger deal since it limits the utility of the class (opposite of what GC indicated was his goal during the rogue Q&A).

    The HaT nerf will indeed kill the HaT raid spec.
    The current subt tree is so confused that I doubt any clever Elitist Jerks will find a suitable substitute. No matter what this will reduce that tree’s ability to competer with Assasin & Combat.
    But what this nerf does do is open the door for real fixes to the subt tree.

    Pre-nerf, HaT was such an OP talent that any attempt to tweak the rest of the tree just made HaT stronger. In order to fix the tree Bliz has to nerf HaT first.
    Here’s to hoping they can salvage the rest of the tree.
    What is subt anyway?
    A tree about openers?
    A tree about finishers?
    A tree about hemo (which hates daggers)?
    A tree about backstab (which requires daggers)?
    I don’t buy the “utility” argument. All 3 trees have utility.
    Seems to me that the current subt tree is just a mess. There’s no rotation (unless you call “eviscrate eviscerate evisc…” a rotation. There’s no consistency or synergy.
    Here’s to hoping that finally blizz can fix this.

  3. 3 Stonedrake
    August 14, 2009 at 8:40 pm

    Good thing there are still chests, boxes, crowd control, locked doors and traps in heroics and raids! Oh wait…

    Seriously though, at least we have some damned good interrupts.

  4. 4 Jerald
    August 19, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    There are still people playing HaT? If you have other rogues in your raid, maybe, but HaT is indeed no longer “raid viable”, and I don’t believe it has been for some time. When raiding, I have never had a HaT rogue do more DPS then my Muti spec.

    As for the FoK nerf, well that just sucks. FoK isn’t completely useless, but it is the only thing we had to compete with the mages, locks, and hunters on trash. Sure on some trash pulls it was ridiculous, breaking into the 20k-30k dps range, but overall it was pretty even, with the 4 pure DPS classes coming out on top for most trash pulls (as it should be). This will probably not be the case, now that FoK is getting nerfed. I am sorry, but a decently skilled hybrid class player should not be able to out-dps an exceptionally skilled pure dps class on ANY pull, trash or not. I will not be to happy when I see a DK, Warrior, Pally, etc passing me on a trash pull. Like I said, we are pure DPS for a reason…they are hybrid for a reason.

    I am top DPS in my guild, so I will have no problems getting into raids with this nerf, as I have taken the time to prove my skill, and prove that though it is not always noticed, Rogues do bring plenty to the raid. But this nerf makes me feel bad for the new 80 who is trying to get into a pug. The last thing that guy/girl needed was another nerf. Way to go Blizz.

    I am not sure what Blizz is trying to accomplish by nerfing FoK damage twice in a row. (First was the nerf to Overkill). Why not just boost single-target damage and take AoE’s out of our build altogether, since that seems to be the direction they are going.

    These type of changes make me want to demote my rogue to a bank alt, and pick up my DK. I don’t understand why Blizz feels the need to F with the builds, if its not broke, don’t fix it…and it most certainly was not broke.

  5. August 19, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    So much doom and gloom. Its not THAT bad.

    If a 30% nerf to a trash-pull ability makes you want to shelve your rogue, then you may be overreacting. Also, if a pug raid brings a class for its trash pull damage, then its a fail pug. The FoK nerf has zero effect on our boss fight dps, which is where we excel. Trash dps is completely irrelevant, so I have no problems if the warrior or pally beats me there. If you insist on leading the meter on the trash pull, then spec to combat and blow your BF and KS on trash packs. You’ll still have a good shot at the top spot.

    FoK was broke – or at least misused – in PvP. In Arena, a rogue could run around spamming FoK and do enough damage to be effective beyond just poison applications and interrupts. That’s not a playstyle that Blizz wants.

  6. August 28, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    I agree with you…but I just wish they would stop nerfing rogues because of PvP. Fix that problem with re-doing talent points, not nerfing both PvP and PvE.

    I think you misinterpreted my comment about a rogue getting into a pug though. It’s no secret that a new 80 can have a hard time getting into a 5 man group if they are not in a guild, at least on a lower pop server. In 5 mans most of a new rogues dps will come from FoK, since they don’t have the crit, AP, etc yet. That’s the kind of stuff I am talking about…not raids.

  7. 7 Cartavian
    September 24, 2009 at 11:46 pm

    So I have been playing Subtlety for a while now, and have really enjoyed the spec… until this week. Suffice to say the build doesn’t do the extreme damage output of combat or assassination builds, but there is just something about the build that I love to play. Against raid bosses I consistently turned out between 3000-3300 DPS which isn’t the greatest, but considering my love for the spec, it was sufficient for me. The build just *felt* more rogue-ish to me.

    I have yet (to my surprise), in the almost year that I have played this class, to encounter another Subtlety rogue on my server. Perhaps it is because I do not PVP, I can’t be sure. I am mostly surprised because of the blogs that I’ve read concerning two HaT rogues in a raid group simply spamming eviscerate, and though a part of me wanted to try it out, I have never liked the idea of having something so overpowered that it stole away the skill needed to play your class, spec effectively.

    With regard to FoK… In PvE, the only reason I ever used it was to help with aggro on a tank in a multiple mob situation. TotT + FoK was, and still is, effective in that roll. So I am not too concerned with that. What does concern me however is the addition of a CD on HaT. Again, I am not one who “abused” the system, and so for the individual HaT rogue it spelled the death of my build.

    The previous wording stated that not more than one combo point could be generated from your party’s crits per second. The new programming changes that to say that in addition to not being able to generate more than one CP per second, there is also a one second cooldown after gaining a CP. That amounts to 1 CP every two seconds AT THE MOST.

    The heroic dungeons I have run over the past couple days have displayed my dps being cut by 40% in some cases.

    I understand the need for some regulation with regard to the issues discussed in this forum. PvP FoK things… and the spamming of Evis with multiple rogues, etc.

    I just feel really cheated out of a spec that, granted, wasn’t the most awesome DPS, but really was a part of a game that I enjoyed playing.

  8. September 25, 2009 at 11:22 pm

    Blizzard didn’t beat around the bush on that one. If I remember correctly, they said that the HaT build was a gimmick and was not intended game play. So they nerfed it to essentially get rid of it.

    Sucks if you were using it, but I guess I always expected it to get taken out eventually.

  9. 9 sobossy
    September 28, 2009 at 8:34 am

    If you look at the top arena teams at arenajunkies.com you won’t find much combat rogues…
    Even before the nerf Muti/prep build dominated by a huge amount…

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