Mutilate Build in the patch and WotLK

Since my initial post on the subject, the Combat tree has been buffed a bit. Theorycrafters now say that combat and mutilate build are very close in sustained dps. Still, it seems to me from talking to my rogue friends that most dagger rogues are going to go with a mutilate build, and the combat tree will generally be for sword and fist rogues.

Even though Blizz added PvP talents to every tree, I suspect that Subtlety is still going to be the most common PvP spec until people have a chance to test drive all the new stuff. If rogues figure out that Mutilate might be best for PvP, too, then will anyone spec Sub?

As a dedicated dagger rogue, I am excited to give Mutilate a whirl. I still like the idea of Backstab as a defining ability of a rogue (in an lore sense), but I remember Mutilate as a lot of fun before I started raiding, and it is fun to play in beta.

For those who don’t read the Elitist Jerks and other such sites, there are a few different raiding specs being thrown around as good options. I think I am going to start with this for level 70. For soloing and grinding, Relentless Strikes is more valuable than Precision, although I’m not sure if a those points in the Sub tree should be split like that. If I am running a lot of instances I may move some points to Precision instead. If I was truly a solo player all of the time I would get rid of Blood Spatter and try to get points into Fleet Footed.

As I level toward 80, I will work toward this. Again, I’m not certain yet of the relative value of Opportunity vs Relentless Strikes in a raid. Imp SnD won’t be needed between the SnD glyph and the fully talented Cut to the Chase should keep SnD up.

Something rogues have never had to think about – raid buffs. The new Master Poisoner talent gives a nice debuff to the target (+2% crit on all attacks against the target). It is one of the raid buffs that is shared with multiple classes – Ret Paladins (Heart of the Crusader) and Elemental Shamans (Totem of Wrath). So for the first time, a rogue has to consider the raid makeup when choosing his spec. Do you raid with a ret pally? If so, then you don’t need Master Poisoner because the boss will already have that debuff, and you can keep those talent points in Turn the Tables. If you don’t have a ret pally or elemental shaman, then its a rogue’s responsibility to have points in Master Poisoner to get that debuff on the bosses.


10 Responses to “Mutilate Build in the patch and WotLK”

  1. October 14, 2008 at 9:56 pm

    Hey, great post! I’ll throw my two cents in, since I’m planning to respec mutilate ASAP. My currently-planned spec @ 70 is this (44/10/7): http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=fhxcoeMoiroGuZ0xVZxb

    Please note that I’m a ‘fresh’ 70 (my 3rd 70, sigh) w/ S2 daggers and wearing random quest/rep blues; hence my discussion is based around sub-par gear (i.e.; almost-but-not-quite-heroic-ready)

    I’ll pick out the choices we differ on:
    Imp. Eviscerate vs. Blood Spatter – Personal preference. I want to try the glyphed, improved eviscerate in a solo/pvp context. When I hit raids, this will certainly change to rupture w/ Blood Spatter

    Ruthlessness – I really think that this is a waste of 3 points. Combo points aren’t a problem for mutilate builds (Cheap Shot, Mutilate, Seal Fate) and these 3 points could be spent in better places (Fleet Footed, Imp. Kidney Shot, Deadly Brew / Deadened Nerves [PVP])

    Vigor – Energy is the main issue for Mutilate rogues. Increasing it to 110 makes sense to me (since I don’t have the 4-piece bonus…)

    Improved Poisons – I think this personal choice; if you’re using dual instant poisons, this will equate to a 2-3% dps increase, which just isn’t enough for me to justify 5 points. I spent these on utility (Fleet Footed, Quick Recovery [I partner with a resto druid] and Deadly Brew).

    Turn the Tables vs. Master Poisoner – I personally feel that a 3% crit buff to the entire raid is better than a situational 6% to myself. Again, personal preference.

    Cut to the Chase & Hunger for Blood vs. Precision & Opportunity – To 51-point or not to 51-point? This is a hard decision, but for me, Precision and Opportunity provide better options for PvP and solo than C2tC and HfB. At least @ 80, we’ll have both!

  2. 2 David
    October 15, 2008 at 11:29 am

    You need to re-think your build asap…Opportunity 2/2 for Mutilate is 100% required. I would give up 2 Relentless for it at 70. Also your 80 build is the same as your 70 for me. 🙂

  3. 3 Cory
    October 15, 2008 at 12:46 pm

    Do five points really need to be spent on improved poisons? I mean, envenom now has a buff that increases the chance to apply poison after performing it. Although, I use both hands as deadly right now because I do like to use envenom so much, I always try to have my deadly poison stack at 5. I guess I could switch over to using IP MH and DP OH and see if the stack of 5 refreshes quickly enough or not. Plus I guess your dps would increase from the increased application of IP. Do you have any idea how your rotation is going to go? I was trying to figure it out on target dummies and kept losing SnD JUST before I had enough energy to refresh it with envenom. Thoughts?

  4. 4 Rochmoninoff
    October 16, 2008 at 5:03 pm

    You guys need to go check out Elitst Jerks to see how the theory crafting goes regarding how to best spend those mutilate rogue points.
    http://www.wowinsider.com/2008/10/16/patch-3-0-2-guide-to-the-new-profession-abilities/ (30%) so taking those poison enhancing talents like improved poison are a must and much more valuable than Improved Eviscerate (Envenom is not reduced by armor) or Rupture improving talents like Blood Spatter and Serrated Blades (Rupture is only 5% of our damage now, so even if you get both you’ve only increased your DPS by 3% and at a huge opportunity cost).

    Hunger for Blood is great – 30 sec duration +9% to DPS. 1 point investment. What’s not to like?

    Other intersting things:
    Untalented, Wound Poison beats Instant Poision for DPS boost (+ it has a Mortal Strike-like debuff). (Good news for Combat & Subtlety rogues)

    Killing Spree ignores roots and attacks 5x in 2.5 seconds, works with Bladefury, and you continue white attacks. It is MUCH BETTER than shadow step for killing mages. In fact I had a ball last night in Battle Grounds with the 5/51/5 spec.

    I can’t figure out what to do with Subtlety.
    I’ve been a Shadowstep rogue for a year. But with 3.0.2 Shadowstep is nerfed and the other trees have gotten HUGE BUFFs. The Subtlety tree can’t make up it’s mind if it’s the Hemo or the Backstab tree. Hemo is not very effective (due to the 2.3 & 2.4 patch nerfs) at PVP. Backstab is impossible due to positional requirements.
    Yet the tree compares poorly (7-15% worse DPS) than the other two for PVE.
    That tree needs help.
    If its going to be PVP-spec in 3.0+ it needs a complete review and retune.

  5. October 17, 2008 at 8:45 am

    @Josh – Hunger for Blood is awesome. It does not break stealth to cast it, so you can get it up and running before your opener. Its a great boost.

    @Cory – the SnD Glyph will give you that extra time to keep SnD up until your next Envenom. And the theorycrafters on Elitist Jerks show that hitting a 4-pt Envenom is preferable to waiting for that 5th point if you lose SnD in the process.

    I did put the two points in Opportunity for my 70 build, leaving only three in Relentless Strikes. No Precision right now, but in pre-Wrath stuff and during leveling that won’t be so bad.

    I’ll need to spend more time at practice dummies. In the game, mobs are dying so fast I barely have time to get any kind of attack rotation going. I expect that a 4-5 point Envenom and then 4-5 point Rupture will be the way to go on boss fights. (4+n/4+r in EJ-speak)

  6. 6 Immedio
    November 16, 2008 at 2:47 pm

    Non taking Vigor = fail.

  7. 7 Kristos
    November 18, 2008 at 11:40 am

    I’m impressed that we agree on all the talent points if I were using envenom and/or rupture.
    But I’m using a different spec and I’d like to know your opinion.
    Most mobs (dungeons included) don’t survive enough time to make rupture and envenom viable, and since all changes in wotlk I’m testing and it seems quite viable, using instans poisons and eviscerate in a simple rotation. I have been grouping in dungeons with some other rogues and I kept always ahead in dps.
    Keep in mind that now our 25-30% of dps comes from poison, so it seems that for making the most damage from posions ASAP is via instants, because mobs (raids excluded because I’m nor raiding now) dont survie enough time to apply the whole damage that is applied on deadly poison or rupture.
    As example, in 10 secs you should make aprox 11 normal attacks, a instant (with 30% improved) could inject 3-4 poisons,a deadly (40%) about 4-5 poisons, the difference is that it instant daoes more damage per poison applied than deadly (245+0,10*AP versus 244+0,08*AP) and evenmore, the damage applied in that 10 seconds for the instant is TOTAL, and damage applied for the deadly is not total as it needs 12 secs for applying all damage per poison applied, that means the last applied poison, can only apply 1-2 secs of damage, that is 10% of damage!
    Overall, I think that for a targets that survives less than 20 secs is absolutly clear that is better using instants ans evis., the proble is in bosses and raids, because I’m even doubting wich could be better now.

  8. November 18, 2008 at 7:12 pm

    @Immedio – lol, but not in a good way

    One of my pet peeves in the game is the “fail” statement. The implication is that out of the 61 points I spent, there is one that you disagree with, and therefore it is a “fail”. Generally, when people use that word I write them off as uneducated cavemen.

    But in this case I’ll address your point. In single, non-elite mob combat, the 10 points from Vigor is useful. In PvP where burst damage is ideal, that 10 energy is great. I don’t PvP, and the spec was intended as a raid spec. In a raid boss fight which lasts 5-10 minutes, the extra 10 initial energy is overwhelmed by the huge amount of energy regenerated over the course of the entire combat. Ten energy is all but pointless in this scenario. This analysis can be verified by many rogue experts around the internet. Check it out.

  9. November 18, 2008 at 7:30 pm


    The way mobs are dying now in the game is a little disappointing to me. You are exactly right – that Deadly Poison and Envenom are not ideal when mobs die in a few seconds.

    In recent raids and instances, I have fallen behind other classes in damage during trash mobs pulls. Their faster burst damage and AoE gives them a clear advantage. However, my Deadly Poison/Envenom cycle puts me way out in front on boss fights. It will do even better when we get to harder bosses and they live longer.

    If you are really looking for burst damage on short fights, you might do even better with a combat build, as Blade Flurry will be your best friend every time it is up.

    As for your poisons – don’t discount Wound Poison. Your Instant Poisons have a 30% application rate (with Imp Poisons). Wound Poison does slightly less damage, but with a 50% application rate it will proc more often. Wound Poison now does (188+0,04*AP), so depending on your AP it can be the better option (surprise!).

  10. 10 kristos
    November 19, 2008 at 8:09 am

    Yep, you’re right Dinaer and thnx! 🙂
    I just found out yesterday testing all poisons, and really works great a wound poison with muti, it seems the best option of all.

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Dinaer - 100 Assassination Rogue (US - Sen'Jin)
Derence - 92 Prot/Ret Paladin (US - Sen'Jin)
Metius - 91 Shadow Priest (US - Sen'Jin)
Liebnitz - 100 Arcane Mage (US - Sen'Jin)
Fastad - 90 Subtlety Rogue (US - Sen'Jin)
Darishin - 100 Resto/Balance Druid (US - Sen'Jin)
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