13
Apr
13

My Opinion: LFR is ruining the game

What does that title mean?  Let me explain.  I’ve said this all before, but seeing GuildOx rankings really slammed the point home for me.

First – understand that I don’t consider LFR to be actual raiding.  Its more like sightseeing.  Yes, I know that LFR is tougher now than it was back in Cata.  However, the increasing Determination buff means that you can continue to screw up and you’ll eventually succeed despite yourself.  Its a nice way for everyone to see the raid encounters without being accountable for their performance.  Its a good thing.  I am not anti-LFR.  I don’t run it myself, but I don’t hate it.  Its an aspect of the game that is available if you want it.

However…

I recently went on GuildOx to see how my guild stacked up against other guilds on my realm.  I was surprised to see that, on Sen’jin which is by no means a dead realm, only 20 or so guilds have completed Tier 14 raids on normal mode.  In fact, my guild *just* killed Amber-Shaper Unsok this week on 10 normal, and we are only the 25th guild on the server to do so.

I’m not even looking at heroic modes.  Just normal.  If you have cleared T14 on normal and done the first boss in T15, then you’re a top twenty guild on my server.

WTF?

What does this tell me?  It tells me that guilds (at least on my realm) aren’t really doing progression raids anymore.  Since raiding is such a large part of the game, I can’t imagine that people aren’t raiding.  The obvious conclusion is that people are getting their raiding fix through LFR, and not so much in guild raids.

I have a problem with this.

In my personal vision of WoW, guilds and interpersonal interaction are the heart and soul of the game.  The need for cooperation to overcome obstacles is what the original raid encounters were built on.  Communication, people doing their job, everyone having a role… these were the skills that set the foundation for the more fun and challenging raid bosses.  LFR doesn’t have much or any of that.

I really, really don’t like this model.  Yes, LFR gets people into raiding, and that is a good thing.  But its being used as an expected part of the gearing path.  People run Thone of Thunder (LFR) in order to gear up for Throne of Thunder (normal).  What is this nonsense?  Run a raid to gear for the same raid?  How is this different than the ToC days in Wrath, when you ran 10 man to gear up for 25 man?

There isn’t even any sense of anticipation or buildup.  A new patch comes out with a new raid.  A week later it opens up on LFR.  Then… Boom!  In a couple of hours of pugging you have cleared the newly available raid content.  It trivializes the time and effort of raid design.

For me (and this is just my approach) I am looking forward to seeing Throne of Thunder.  I’m looking forward to figuring out the encounters one by one and progressing through it.  I’m looking forward to hearing the vocalizations of the bosses and getting to know their story and their personality.  I’ll see it when I get to it, after my guild clears tier 14.  All of that anticipation is lost in LFR raiding.

WoW is a great MMO.  WoW is a mediocre single-player game, and LFR has allowed it to drift into that mode.  LFR as a way into raiding is fine.  LFR as a true alternative to guild raiding is not in the best interests of the game, in my opinion.

(What?  You don’t care about the story and anticipation of raids?  You only care about gear?  This isn’t the blog post you’re looking for.  Move along.  Move along.)

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26 Responses to “My Opinion: LFR is ruining the game”


  1. 1 BenDover
    April 13, 2013 at 9:46 am

    I think it comes down to investing resources. It just doesn’t make sense to create content only a small portion of the player base ever gets to see while it’s relevant. It’s not affordable, and it’s not good business. Without LFR we wouldn’t have Normal or Heroic raiding at all. It just wouldn’t be something the company could spend resources on anymore. LFR is a necessary evil.

    I do agree that it does water down the anticipation some, but I think there are some fundamentally important things the GuildOX rankings aren’t revealing. A big part of the player base has aged. It’s been, what, 8 years now. The old lady is still very good at what she does, but a lot of the people who started raiding back in the day now have families and jobs, things that consume more time and take that away from gaming. For many people LFR is the only accessible way to see the content these days.

    I think it’s worth taking a step back and looking at LFR objectively. It’s become the lifeblood of end game content in WoW. In Vanilla and BC most people never got to raid, due to various reasons. When the Dungeon Finder tool was introduced in Wrath, I think that was the biggest game changer so far, as it meant people would be able to get into a dungeon fast, instead of spending hours barking on trade, hoping to form a group. Of course, one could argue about the loss of server community with that, but overall, more people are playing the game, instead of waiting to be able to play it. In Cata, with LFR, we saw how Raiding became something everyone can do, instead of just the chosen or entitled. While Normal and Heroic were still clearly different from LFR, at least the hard work the devs put in creating content didn’t go unseen from the masses. Now with LFR in place, and with the tier system in it (you need a certain iLv to be able to access higher tiers of content) we are starting to see the full potential of the thing. Raiding isn’t exclusive, but inclusive. Everyone can do it, and for those craving more than a sightseeing tour there are more difficult versions of the content to try out.

    You are making a personal choice of not using the LFR to see content before you clear the previous Raids. That’s totally fine. You aren’t being penalized for it. For guilds looking to compete for World or Server Firsts, these players will always do whatever they can to gain an edge and get through stuff faster. If you aren’t bothered by speeding through things, than that’s totally fine, and you aren’t in any way forced to do so.

    LFR isn’t so much an alternative to Guild Raiding as it is a way for people to raid without guilds. It’s not the same experience. It’s pugging, and that can never replace the experience of working with a group of people to achieve a common goal. LFR is just a way to make the content worth making for Blizzard, instead of having their people waste resources on something the majority won’t get to experience.

    • April 13, 2013 at 2:06 pm

      All good points, but I think that the plan has gone astray.

      You say that LFR isn’t so much an alternative to Guild Raiding. My interpretation of the GuildOx rankings is that it is becoming very much that. I don’t think that Blizzard really intended that outcome. However, with LFG and LFR the idea of a “guild” is almost outdated.

      My guild does what it does because most of us have been together for a long time. I can’t imagine what it is like to try and organize and run a younger guild these days. Why would people join a guild if they can pug through LFG and LFR? What rewards do you get from a guild? I thought the rewards were the better gear and better experience, but the GuildOx rankings seem to imply that there are not a lot of people who value those things.

      • 3 BenDover
        April 15, 2013 at 5:25 pm

        I always felt that the main reward of being in a guild is the social aspect, the community. LFR offers the content, but it’s not meant to build a community. Players are meant to build those.

      • May 13, 2013 at 1:45 pm

        I would second BenDover’s comment that the main reward of being in a guild is the social aspect. For those less inclined in that direction, the guild perks (of a maxed level guild) may suffice.

        As a side note, past experience makes a huge difference in how one approaches this issue. Progression raiding in guilds has been beneficial to you. On the other hand, there are people like me – I’ve tried raiding in DragonSoul and in Mists, and in both cases, the stresses of raiding contributed to the sad destruction of my guild experience. Much as I complain endlessly about dolts in LFR, it DOES enable me to see the “cool stuff” without having to watch or endure my relationship with others in a guild falling to pieces over my imperfect reforging, gemming, enchanting or the like.

      • May 20, 2013 at 9:55 am

        You are the perfect candidate for LFR. You get to raid, but you don’t want to be in a guild. You’re not using to to replace guild raiding, but instead to access content you wouldn’t see otherwise. This is ideal.

        My point was not to argue against LFR, but to point out that its use has spread beyond that targeted audience.

    • 6 Sam
      April 17, 2013 at 7:09 pm

      I don’t think you can really call LFR necessary, given it was not in the game during Vanilla, BC, WOTLK and the first part of Cata. It has only been added quite recently, and we had raids long before that. Wow also did pretty good business in that period. So I think LFR is not necessary for us to have raids.

      However as you rightly point out, LFR does have a purpose in the game now. Perhaps one option would be to delay the release of LFR, so normal raiders did not need to do it to improve their gear. It could be delayed until the next tier was released, or maybe released partway through the current tier. This would address some of Dinear’s concerns, while still allowing non-raiders to see the content.

    • 7 Eki
      April 26, 2013 at 4:50 am

      BenDover wrote:
      “I think it comes down to investing resources. It just doesn’t make sense to create content only a small portion of the player base ever gets to see while it’s relevant. It’s not affordable, and it’s not good business. ”
      Well, ultimately, good business is having people play your game and therefore paying the subscription.
      Your point is off in my opinion, I’ll use the carrot on a stick example. Although the mule never reaches the carrot, it is still the main point in driving it forward, and therefore very valuable. What would happen if you just placed carrots on the way and let the mule have them? It would eventually get fed and lie down, not moving anymore. The same happens with LFR. People don’t have a real goal anymore since their desire to see the content has already been satisfied.
      This of course is based on my personal experience. For me there are two major points for playing wow: the people I play it with (my guild friends) and seeing the raid content as in art and encounter mechanics and overcoming them. With LFR, I can tick off half my motivation for playing within the first week, there is no real goal for me anymore. Therefore, I find myself only mildly interested in the game, only logging in to do something with my guild. When there should be another game to play with them, sure I’ll do that and quit wow.
      If, and that’s what I assume here, this applies to many more people than me, then you could very well say that creating content that only a fraction of the playerbase actually completes is in this case indeed a very good business for Blizzard. Because even if people don’t actually complete it, it is still a strong drive to play the game, and that’s what’s good business.

  2. April 13, 2013 at 2:05 pm

    “People run Thone of Thunder (LFR) in order to gear up for Throne of Thunder (normal). What is this nonsense? Run a raid to gear for the same raid?”

    Actually, to be fair to Blizzard, if you’re the intended audience of Throne of Thunder (guilds that cleared all normals the previous tier and farmed them a bit), you don’t need to do this. You’d be in all 496 items with some upgraded gear (from valor upgrades). Technically the 502 drops in ToT LFR would be upgrades for some slots, but you could easily get by without them, you wouldn’t be wiping because of it.

    This is doubly true for people who were clearing heroic raids – who quite possibly didn’t have a single upgrade from ToT LFR. This was intentional and welcomed. I’ve managed to avoid doing LFR on my main entirely – with one exception of doing Tortos in LFR because I missed him one week and was 300 rep short of Revered with Shado-Pan assult. But again, that was for rep that I missed, not gear.

    Now, if you’re a fresh 90 or someone who didn’t previously clear normals, then sure, ToT LFR drops a lot of upgrades which help you in ToT itself. But that’s more of a catch-up mechanism – and if all you do to gear up is ToT LFR, it’ll take a while to be ready for ToT. Much better to do the nerfed t14 content and get the 496 items (especially since you can basically use an Elder Charm on every single boss).

    “There isn’t even any sense of anticipation or buildup. A new patch comes out with a new raid. A week later it opens up on LFR. Then… Boom! In a couple of hours of pugging you have cleared the newly available raid content. It trivializes the time and effort of raid design.”

    Except they deliberately avoided that. First three bosses the first week of LFR. Three more a week later. Three more two WEEKS later. Three more two weeks after THAT. Hell, at the time of this writing, the last three bosses won’t be available for another three days. And we’re already up to about 3300 guilds clearing 12/12 normal.

    • April 13, 2013 at 2:10 pm

      “Actually, to be fair to Blizzard, if you’re the intended audience of Throne of Thunder (guilds that cleared all normals the previous tier and farmed them a bit), you don’t need to do this. You’d be in all 496 items with some upgraded gear (from valor upgrades).”

      I think this hits right on my point. I don’t think enough people are actually running normal mode raids. They are strictly doing LFR. That’s how I read the GuildOx rankings. I’m not sure who their intended audience is, but it seems to me that a pretty large number of people are moving directly from LFR T14 (+ valor upgrades) into LFR T15.

      Since my view (and I admit that its my personal view) is that the social aspect of the game is what created its success, then this all-pug-all-the-time environment undermines what I think made the game great.

      • 10 BenDover
        April 15, 2013 at 5:32 pm

        To take your interpretation of the data a bit further, aren’t you assuming people want to do normal raids? The numbers could mean that now people aren’t forced to do Normals and Heroics. People have more options, and now can just chill out, aren’t forced to invest as much time and effort just to see content. This could suggest many people don’t want a challenge of that level, that they don’t find stuff like that as fun as you might hope. In any case, LFR is probably the thing that keeps Raiding on harder difficulties a viable option, since without it developing raid instances wouldn’t be affordable.

  3. 11 tk
    April 13, 2013 at 5:10 pm

    Sharing lockouts between all modes would fix this to some extent.

  4. April 14, 2013 at 2:12 am

    “I’m not sure who their intended audience is, but it seems to me that a pretty large number of people are moving directly from LFR T14 (+ valor upgrades) into LFR T15. ”

    That is precisely the intent. LFR is supposed to be a “progression path” (I use the phrase EXTREMELY loosely) of its own.

    “Since my view (and I admit that its my personal view) is that the social aspect of the game is what created its success, then this all-pug-all-the-time environment undermines what I think made the game great.”

    The question is not whether it undermines it – because it certainly does. The question is whether the benefits outweigh that undermining. Same as the LFD tool – I remember spamming for hours trying to put together a group in Vanilla. I remember doing /who 60 priest and whispering them one at a time to see if any of them were willing to heal a dungeon.

    Did I make some connections that way? Sure. But can Blizzard expect most people to be willing to do that? Definitely not. Enter the LFD tool – you give up some social bonds for the ability to actually do dungeons in a reasonable amount of time (or at all in some cases).

    Is it perfect? Hell no. Did it make us lose something? Very much so. Are we still better off in the end? I think we are.

    • April 14, 2013 at 6:34 pm

      I think that the question of “are we still better off in the end” very much depends on what you expect players to get out of the game.

      You’re weighing the social/group/guild feature against the accessibility of content. Its a fine line, and I wish the pendulum hadn’t swung quite so far to accessibility. Its not that I’m elitist and want raidin restricted. I just want to see guild runs survive, and they are dying.

      I agree wholeheartedly that in vanilla and BC the barriers for group content outside of guild runs were too high. However, in Wrath (the birth of LFD) and Cata (the birth of LFR) guilds runs were still the norm.

      LFR is not just providing an alternate progression path. Its providing the *primary* progression path. I would like to see a system where LFR existed, but was not so appealing as to completely cripple guild runs.

      • 14 Galaedria
        April 14, 2013 at 8:58 pm

        “I would like to see a system where LFR existed, but was not so appealing as to completely cripple guild runs.”

        1. If LFR is so appealing, this would normally be considered a good thing. Should it be deliberately made worse so that guild runs are preferable?

        2. If guild runs are being “crippled”, then what would you suggest be done to improve their appeal? You’ve given some good reasons as to why you prefer guild runs, but perhaps not everyone shares that view. As mentioned below, one possible reason for guild runs failing could be that normal raids now seem “too hard” compared to LFR. Personally I think people should be able to run content at a difficulty they’re comfortable with. I do think that the LFR buff for wiping is contrary to the spirit of raiding – you should be rewarded for overcoming the challenge, not for failing to overcome it. Perhaps instead they could be buffing guild runs that down a boss … bonus rep with each raider’s highest non-exalted faction, a bonus loot chest that contains raid consumables and gems, or a repairbot offering free repairs.

        How many carrots would it take to make guild runs as appealing as LFR? How can the guild social experience and rewards be so amazing that they overshadow the convenience factor of raiding when you want, for as long as you want with a high probability of succeeding against each boss the group confronts? What about the guild teams that are choosing to run LFR together instead of normal modes?

        I’d love to hear that guilds are thriving in the raiding environment rather than falling apart, but I think some of the changes in popularity of guild raiding vs LFR are reflections of changes in people’s lifestyles. Short bursts of entertainment are in – twitter, facebook, ipods, ipads, etc. Long periods of dedicated activity is out. Look at cricket for example – test matches lasting several days was the norm for a long time, then one day internationals rose in popularity and now Twenty20 matches lasting a few hours are gaining ground. WoW raiding has similarly gone from 40 man raids that took ages to organise and took ages to complete, to 10- and 20-man raids that still require significant organisation and effort, and now LFR is here offering a quick taste of raiding experience with the organisation automatically done for you in minutes. Test match cricket hasn’t died out completely and neither will guild raid runs, because there will always be fans of those formats … just perhaps not as many as in the past.

      • April 18, 2013 at 4:23 pm

        I don’t disagree. Short LFR runs with a minimum of commitment are appealing.

        However, I don’t think WoW stands up well as a short-burst single-player game. LFR is a shadow of what raiding is supposed to be. It is to raiding what little league is to major league baseball. It has the “everybody wins” mentality.

        LFR is fine for sightseeing, but if that is truly becoming the main form of raiding in WoW then I feel WoW is just about finished.

    • May 13, 2013 at 1:49 pm

      This may seem bizarre, but some folks do make friends and other social connections via LFD!

  5. 17 Wulfstan
    April 14, 2013 at 9:09 am

    I read the data differently. For me, the issue is that Normal raids are tuned to be too hard. I think normal-mode raiding would thrive better with an easier curve.

    For example, my progress in previous tiers (while current): ICC: 11/12 HC (so 23/24 steps complete), 4.0: 5/13 HC (17/25 complete), Firelands: 6/7 HC (13/14), Dragon Soul: 8/8 HC (16/16), 5.0/5.1: 11/16 normal (11/32 complete).

    This is forcing many guilds to use LFR as an essential gearing tool, or being forced to progress very slowly through outdated content. The latter is very painful, and it isn’t surprising that some folks choose to opt out and run LFR only.

    • April 14, 2013 at 6:28 pm

      I think that normal modes being tuned “too hard” is simply a consequence of the existence of LFR.

      When you can go in through LFR and steamroll the place, it sets an expectation. Then in normal modes, when you get stuck on Garalon for three weeks straight, people get impatient. That’s exactly when they give up on normals and resort to LFR.

      I consider the idea that normal modes are “too hard” to be yet another negative effect of LFR.

      • April 14, 2013 at 6:35 pm

        “I consider the idea that normal modes are “too hard” to be yet another negative effect of LFR.”

        Actually, Blizzard specifically said they felt more comfortable making normal modes harder due to LFR. Previously there was often too large of a gap between normal and heroic – LFR lets Blizzard put those two difficulties closer together.

  6. April 14, 2013 at 12:15 pm

    ‘Firelands: 6/7 HC (13/14), Dragon Soul: 8/8 HC (16/16)”

    How much of this was pre-nerf?

    “being forced to progress very slowly through outdated content.”

    Given that you can pick up 522 items from Valor, some free 522 items from Jin’rokh, and the raids were nerfed by 10%, why do you think you would progress “very slowly?” Blizzard just gave you a huge boost.

  7. 21 Arcadius
    April 18, 2013 at 12:22 pm

    “…in normal modes, when you get stuck on Garalon for three weeks straight, people get impatient. That’s exactly when they give up on normals and resort to LFR.”

    Yes.

    When you raid twice a week and get stuck on a single boss for three weeks, people get impatient. We’ve already had acknowledgement that people don’t like to wipe to the same boss a hundred times before progressing. The average guild member isn’t a hard core raider who thrives on that kind of punishment. If you want a guild focused raiding end-game, you have to offer something different.

    Solution to guild decay: Offer a story-mode 10 man raid.

    This is a raid tuned to the same difficulty of the LFR-25 and scaled for 10-man. This is present in the game for 25-man groups – you just que for LFR. The only change is to tune if for 10 as well.

    This is for the smaller group that wants to raid as a guild but doesn’t have the guild-wide chops for normal mode yet and doesn’t want to suffer through the social acid bath of LFR. The move brings guilds back into the picture because the smaller ones can still fill every slot. This brings back coordination, communication, assigning of tasks, etc. It gives a taste of the raiding experience, and possibly leads successful guilds to accept greater challenges.

    • April 18, 2013 at 4:30 pm

      “When you raid twice a week and get stuck on a single boss for three weeks, people get impatient. We’ve already had acknowledgement that people don’t like to wipe to the same boss a hundred times before progressing.”

      Part of playing a game is learning by failure. LFR removes that. Normal mode raiding has it.

      If I play against my daughter in Scrabble, I win every time. Yet she still plays against me. If she suddenly threw the game pieces on the floor and said “I’m not playing against you any more” I’d consider that immature. Similarly, if players only want to raid when they are virtually guaranteed of winning, I consider that an equally immature attitude.

      If Blizzard wants to cater to that mentality, that’s fine. It goes along with my statement, though, that LFR is ruining a game.

      A game where everyone is assured of winning to keep everyone happy is called a “cash cow”. Its a non-game (you can’t call it a game if no one loses) that keeps everyone mollified so they will pay subscriptions. Again – if that’s what LFR is doing, then the game is ruined.

      I’m not advocating for hardcore kick-people-who-can’t-dps and all of the baggage that goes with that. But if we’re all pushing for easy-mode runs -social or not – then I think my point is made. However, I do agree with you that if LFR is the future of raiding then they might as well make it 10-man also.

      • 23 Arcadius
        April 18, 2013 at 11:19 pm

        Initially, I find myself disagreeing with statements like “A game where everyone is assured of winning to keep everyone happy is called a ‘cash cow’ ” and “you can’t call it a game if no one loses”. We don’t apply those standards to activities like questing and dungeons, for example. Players would never tolerate a dungeon that required three weeks of repeated faceplants to down a single boss.

        If the argument is that LFR makes raiding too easy and is therefore ruining the game, then I strongly disagree. An LFR tuned instance allows people of all skill levels to see end-game content that they would normally be excluded from, while still appropriately rewarding players of higher skill level who seek greater challenges from harder modes. I think that Blizzard wants to cater to the mentality that seeks entertainment from an engaging activity and is willing to devote time and money to its enjoyment.

        However, if your argument is that LFR is drawing people away from raiding with guilds and that an important social aspect of the game is being lost in the process, I completely agree. Worse, LFR ill-prepares potential raiders for normal mode raids, raising false expectations and establishing poor raiding habits. Those potential raiders are lost to the more skilled raiding community when their false expectations are crushed and they leave the raiding scene in frustration, returning to the cess-pits of LFR to make it even fouler with their new bitterness.

        If LFR-level difficulty is needed to allow some casual players to participate in raiding, then that should be facilitated through guilds, not in spite of them. I think you stated this most clearly, “In my personal vision of WoW, guilds and interpersonal interaction are the heart and soul of the game.” I love the craft of putting together a well executed raid plan. I love the experience of a guild team working together to initially struggle and then finally master the skills necessary to overcome raid challenges. These things don’t come from pugs.

    • April 21, 2013 at 6:32 pm

      All of those things go hand in hand, both the parts you agree with and the parts you don’t.

      LFR serves a purpose – to provide endgame content to people of all background, all skill levels, and all time schedules. That is a great feature in WoW.

      However, it is also easy mode, where the hardest mechanics are turned off and a growing buff assures you of eventual success, no matter how poorly you play.

      The problem seems to be that many people (too many) are being drawn to the easy mode because the normal mode is harder, and they like the assurance of success.

      Thus, my main objection is that it is drawing people away from guild and normal mode raids.

      However, my contention that assured success makes it less of a game stands for all aspects of WoW, including quests and dungeons. I have a hard time leveling alts right now because leveling quests and dungeons are so ridiculously easy as to be boring. There is nothing interesting about “talk to this NPC, click on the box without reading it, open your map, run to the spot marked on the map, click on the sparkling thing, and run back to the NPC”. That is what questing is now. I would prefer a little challenge in my quests. I want to fail sometimes and have to devise a better plan. Same with dungeons.

  8. 25 footpain
    April 19, 2013 at 2:09 am

    i agree on some terms lfr is good but its boring as well im not in a raiding guild or get the the to raid but what i have done on normal and then tried lfr is such a big loss in tactics that i refuse to do it haha maybe lfr will get harder or they will stop lfr all together if this is the general feeling they should do some thing.

  9. February 3, 2014 at 6:21 am

    You’re so awesome! I do not think I’ve read anything like that before.
    So good to find someone with some genuine thoughts on this issue.
    Really.. thank you for starting this up. This website is something that’s needed
    on the web, someone with a little originality!


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