01
Nov
12

Impatient

“Dad, I really like baseball.  But mostly I like hitting.  Can I just hit and not play in the field?”

“Dad, I love playing baseball games, but I don’t like practice.  Can I just do the games and skip practice?”

These are both things that my son has said to me during his time playing little league baseball.  Its natural for a child, with a limited worldview, to want to focus only on the things that are fun and try to avoid the things that are less fun.  As we age, we learn that sometimes you take the bad with the good, and you endure the dull parts in order to reach the enjoyable parts.

We’re a month into MoP now and there have been a wide range of blog and forum posts giving impressions and opinions of the current expansion.  Many, if not most, are positive.  However, there is definitely an undercurrent in a lot of the criticisms that sound a lot like my son.

“I don’t want to do dailies.  I just want to raid and get all my Valor from that.”

“Valor Point gear shouldn’t be tied to reputation. I hate rep grinds.”

“There should be more portals in Pandaria.  It takes too long to run and fly everywhere.”

“Bring back tabards so that I can just grind dungeons for my rep.”

All of these posts are essentially the same.  They say that the part of the game that the author likes should be emphasized, and the part that they don’t enjoy should be eliminated.  By structuring the game that way, Blizzard is slapping them in the face.

This is a little petulant.

“But its a game!”  They would say.  “I shouldn’t have to do the parts that I don’t like!”  First, I would challenge the assertion that you *have* to do them.  Second, in chess do you get to move your queen without moving your pawns?  In Monopoly can you just ignore the Go To Jail space because it slows down your real estate purchases?  In poker, can you flip through the deck to find the cards you need, because folding isn’t fun?  Games have a multitude of facets, some more fun than others.

If the dailies are so tedious, then why do them?  A word that is thrown around a lot is “mandatory”.  As in, “I hate dailies, but Blizzard has made them mandatory.”  If you step back and look objectively, you’ll see that nothing is mandatory.

“But we have to optimize!”  the raiders will say.  “How can we jump into heroic modes if we don’t have all of the best possible gear in every slot?”

This, to me, is a matter of patience and being spoiled.  Gear flowed so easily in the last expansion.  At the end of both Wrath and Cataclysm you could hit the level cap and then get equipped in full epics within a day or two.  We’ve been terribly gear-spoiled.

Also, people have no self-control.  We see dailies and reputations and say OMG I HAVE TO DO THAT BECAUSE ITS THERE.  Rein it in.  You’ve probably got two years with this expansion.  You can get the reputation to exalted later.  Or next year.

Finally, we have lost our patience.  For some, the only goal is to get into heroic raids as fast as possible.  The leveling and gearing process is seen as just an obstacle, rather than a part of the game itself.  They don’t want to repeat the normal raids over and over until they get the drops they need.  By gating the epic gear with reputation requirements, Blizzard has forced them to go slowly.

If you don’t want to do dailies for reputation, that’s fine.  Gear is readily available through heroic instances, then LFR and then normal mode raids.  Get your Justice Point and quest gear, a couple of crafted pieces or scenario rewards, and start queuing for LFR.  Do that every week and you’ll be all in epics within a few weeks.

Oh, a few weeks is unacceptably long?  If that’s not fast enough for you, then don’t blame Blizzard.

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13 Responses to “Impatient”


  1. 1 Patrick
    November 1, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    Great post, it’s good to see another viewpoint into the dailies. To add my scenario into the mix and I’m sure I’m the minority. I refuse to do dailies but I raid every week, I have nothing to spend my VP on as I do not have the required rep. I’m almost capped on VP too.

    I agree the rep grinds are optional but it makes the core mechanic of earning valor and spending valor meaningless

    I think Blizzard should do a dev post on the intended design of gearing up in Mists.

    • November 1, 2012 at 4:18 pm

      The assertion that rep grinds making the core mechanic of earning and spending valor meaningless is only true if you’re also a person that obtains all their gear via dungeon running and raiding. If you’re the type of player that doesn’t do those things (maybe you don’t have time, maybe you’re socially anxious, maybe you just prefer to play solo, maybe your schedule is too wonky to be able to commit to regularly showing up to things where other people depend on you…I could go on and on) then the daily quests and rep grinds are the very engine that drives the earning and spending of valor points.

      And before you posit what the point of obtaining gear is if you’re not doing group content:

      1) Shinies. Those pieces of gear look better than the leveling gear. Or it’s more fun to see your character pane all purpley because that’s what players of the game are trained to want.

      2) Tranmog. Back to my point of maybe the gear just looks better.

      3) Arbitrary goals. “Useful” or not, the goal of obtaining that gear can be something tracked and incrementally worked towards.

      Blizz’s intended design is to give people who don’t play the way raiders like us play alternate ways to eventually earn that Valor gear.

  2. November 5, 2012 at 12:50 pm

    “Oh, a few weeks is unacceptably long? If that’s not fast enough for you, then don’t blame Blizzard.”

    Who should I blame? The people we’re competing with world-wide for rankings and thus recruitment? This is not an isolated vacuum when it comes to raiding. If we don’t do something and others do, we’re put at a disadvantage. Same deal with the nerfs. If you’re a reasonably high ranked guild (mine’s currently US 111 overall and 64 for 10 mans on two nights a week), a few weeks is the difference between US 111 and US 500. Which means the world in recruiting quality players.

    “I don’t want to do dailies. I just want to raid and get all my Valor from that.

    Valor Point gear shouldn’t be tied to reputation. I hate rep grinds.”

    Yeah, because those PvP players need to do dailies and grind reputation for…

    …oh wait, they don’t. PvP players can do BGs for honor (and some conquest) and then do Rated BGs/Arenas for conquest. Kind of makes you wish raiders could do dungeons for justice and raids for valor. If PvPers need to do dailies for gold for enchants and such, completely fair for raiders to have to do the same…except the raiders are doing it for the valor/rep.

    Dailies and reputation are there to give people who don’t raid seriously (or PvP seriously) something to do. Serious PvPers don’t care about maxing the reputation to improve their character’s performance. Raiders shouldn’t have to either.

    • November 5, 2012 at 8:35 pm

      I see why you want to get rid of the rep. You want to focus on just the part of the game that you like and concentrate on raids. I disagree with your premise, though.

      Who should you blame? Well, who made the choice to compete for world firsts? When you make that decision, you were committing yourself to do whatever you have to, no matter how much you dislike it.

      I love to play baseball. I can go out and play a game with my friends. There’s no pressure. I don’t practice 5 days a week. I don’t work out. I don’t do steroids. However, if I decided that I wanted to be one of the best baseball players in the world, I would have to practice for hours every day, hit the gym in my spare time, and possibly investigate the use of performance enhancing drugs to give me an edge.

      Would that make baseball less fun? You bet it would. But that’s what I’d have to do to reach that goal. Is it someone else’s fault? Nope.

      The situation that you are asking for – that raiders should not have to do rep grinds – has never been the case in WoW. In vanilla, you had to grind rep for Molten Core. In BC you had to get rep just to access heroic instances in some cases, and definitely to get access to crafted resist patterns needed for higher raids. In Wrath and Cata you needed to grind rep to get the head enchants and shoulder enchants. Why would you expect rep grinds to go away now?

  3. November 6, 2012 at 3:26 am

    “Well, who made the choice to compete for world firsts? When you make that decision, you were committing yourself to do whatever you have to, no matter how much you dislike it.”

    Well, actually I committed myself to founding and running a guild dedicated to raiding only two nights a week, to provide a haven for skilled raiders who couldn’t afford to have three or more scheduled nights a raiding a week. To get a ton done in very limited playtime.

    In other words, I did *not* ever think we’d compete for world firsts, but I did think we’d compete against other two night a week guilds.

    “However, if I decided that I wanted to be one of the best baseball players in the world, I would have to practice for hours every day, hit the gym in my spare time, and possibly investigate the use of performance enhancing drugs to give me an edge.”

    Except my guild was basically founded to demonstrate this isn’t true. That it’s possible to be in one of the best guilds in WoW (we’re currently the top two night a week world-wide as far as I can tell and about 400 world overall) WITHOUT dedicating so much time to the game.

    If anything, we’re a team of retired professional baseball players who play with their peers occasionally. Perhaps not considered quite as good as in their prime, but still among the best in the world while not having to dedicate much time.

    ” In vanilla, you had to grind rep for Molten Core. In BC you had to get rep just to access heroic instances in some cases, and definitely to get access to crafted resist patterns needed for higher raids. In Wrath and Cata you needed to grind rep to get the head enchants and shoulder enchants. Why would you expect rep grinds to go away now?”

    Vanilla: Eight people have to do the rep grind for the runes (that also didn’t have a daily cap). If you mean patterns, then potentially a few more (if they weren’t already doing the runes)

    BC: You got the rep from doing normal dungeons a few times to get into heroics. You got more rep from heroics.

    I’ll skip Wrath for the moment since I didn’t play during 90% of it (quit from the end of BC until the end of Wrath).

    Cata: Head enchants? Do dungeons. Shoulder enchants? Do a questline (again, no daily cap), then dungeons.

    Notice a theme in those three expansions? Two of them involved doing dungeons for rep (aka, group PvE content) and if there was other stuff it didn’t have a daily cap. You could dedicate a few hours and get Therazane friendly. Didn’t have to do dailies on multiple days.

    “You want to focus on just the part of the game that you like and concentrate on raids.”

    People who focus on PvP and do arenas/rated BGs are able to do that. They don’t have to do dailies for rep.

    People who like doing stuff like pet battles are able to do that. They don’t have to do dailies for rep.

    So why is raiding different?

    • November 6, 2012 at 1:08 pm

      I think we’re going to just settle with disagreeing here.

      You seem not to mind running heroics over and over. I can’t stand it. In a given week, I do my dailies every day but I run heroics maybe 3-4 times a week. Dailies have no element of luck. After doing a certain amount of dailies I’ll get my reward. Heroics are too random. I ran 12 heroics in a row without seeing a single rogue piece drop.

      I like raiding, mind you, but with my friends in my guild. I avoid LFR.

      (1) Raiding vs PvP

      PvP has always been a sidelight of WoW. That’s why its never been done that well. Sure, some people focus just on that, which is their prerogative. I’m not going to pretend to know what goes on in Blizzard HQ, but I think we all realize that Blizzard doesn’t put nearly as much developer time into PvP as they do in the PvE game. They make so much effort to separate the PvP game from PvE with things like resilience and PvP Power in order to keep gear from being effective for both.

      This makes it so that you can’t compare the two. You say that PvP doesn’t have to do dailies for rep. That may be true, but they also don’t have much in the way of character advancement other than arena rating. Its like a completely different game. I don’t see the comparison.

      (2) Reputation gating

      If I read you right, you don’t object so much to the concept of reputation gating since that has been done in the past. What really seems to bother you is the lack of tabards as a reputation tool.

      Tabards were easy. TOO easy. When tabards were around, running heroics got you gear upgrades AND valor points AND reputation. That made heroics essentially mandatory – much more mandatory than dailies are now.

      Also, tabards made reputation an afterthought. That’s poor game design. In an RPG, any goal worth reaching should be a goal worth some time and effort. You don’t reach goals as an afterthought.

      (3) Gearing paths

      Back to the original point of my post – I still don’t see that dailies are even much of an issue. If your guild is skilled enough to be competitive for realm and/or world firsts, then I expect you’ll be picking up gear from raids long before you’re at Revered with Golden Lotus or Klaxxi. Why worry about dailies at all? Why not skip them?

      Even if you feel the need to do them, you only need to get Golden Lotus and Klaxxi to Revered. That’s a couple of weeks worth of dailies. Its not *that* bad.

  4. November 6, 2012 at 3:35 pm

    “You seem not to mind running heroics over and over. I can’t stand it. In a given week, I do my dailies every day but I run heroics maybe 3-4 times a week. Dailies have no element of luck. After doing a certain amount of dailies I’ll get my reward. Heroics are too random. I ran 12 heroics in a row without seeing a single rogue piece drop.”

    Okay? I’m really not sure how the random drops of heroic dungeons are relevant here? If the reputation rewarded 463 items so you could choose to do dungeons or do dailies there would be no concern. The problem is that you need the reputation to spend valor for 489 items, which are massive guaranteed upgrades equivalent to normal mode raids.

    “That may be true, but they also don’t have much in the way of character advancement other than arena rating. Its like a completely different game. I don’t see the comparison.”

    To improve their odds of success (aka, better gear), they PvP. BGs for honor and potentially a little conquest. Arenas and rated BGs for conquest. They don’t say “Well, to be competitive in high end group PvP we need to do tons of dailies to unlock conquest gear.”

    “If I read you right, you don’t object so much to the concept of reputation gating since that has been done in the past. What really seems to bother you is the lack of tabards as a reputation tool.

    Tabards were easy. TOO easy. When tabards were around, running heroics got you gear upgrades AND valor points AND reputation. That made heroics essentially mandatory – much more mandatory than dailies are now.”

    I do mind the concept of reputation gating that is done daily *for items essential to high end raiding.* Because instead of gating and preventing people from getting something too quickly, it feels like something you have to do every day or fall behind. Especially for people in my guild who often can’t play every day. If I can’t play much except the weekend but I can play all day then…too bad. Can only do dailies on those two days. And unlike valor from dungeons/scenarios where you get double for the first every day *but can still do them after that for more valor,* dailies have no equivalent. If I miss a day of dailies, I’m plumb out of luck. I can’t put in twice the effort another day to catch up.

    At least Hodir was a single enchant, not literally every single piece of Valor gear.

    Regarding tabards…I haven’t needed an item from a heroic dungeon since the end of week 1 of MoP. The *only* reason I’ve done them since then is for Valor. And I can chain run heroics if I fall behind on Valor for a week to catch up. I’d even agree that tabards were too good…but I think it’s an issue of the amount. If they gave 1/3-1/2 of the rep that they did, I think they would have been fine. Slower rep per hour than dailies, but also to invest time in them beyond just the dailies.

    “Also, tabards made reputation an afterthought. That’s poor game design. In an RPG, any goal worth reaching should be a goal worth some time and effort. You don’t reach goals as an afterthought.”

    How much time and effort should I be expected to spend each day *outside of raiding* to be competitive in raiding? What do you think is a reasonable amount? Because at the start of Mists, it was in the order of 2 hours a day, not even counting stuff like dungeons/scenarios. And now it’s basically zero, since I’m exalted with everything (well, only needed revered for Shado-Pan and August Celestials).

    “If your guild is skilled enough to be competitive for realm and/or world firsts, then I expect you’ll be picking up gear from raids long before you’re at Revered with Golden Lotus or Klaxxi. Why worry about dailies at all? Why not skip them?”

    Well, among other things, you also need revered with Shado-Pan and August Celestials for Valor gear as well. You also can’t even start on those two until you’re revered with Golden Lotus.

    We’re currently at what, week 6 of MoP? Even with clearing 4/6H in MSV and 6/6 in HoF, I am *still* using 3 Valor items. And I’ve been lucky with some drops, otherwise I’ve be using more And I’m actually picking up another Valor item today (boots).

    So now you’re wondering “So, who cares, it’s not like those pieces of gear make that much of a difference, right?” Unfortunately, that’s wrong. My guild killed Heroic Gara’jal (who is a brutal DPS check on 10 man) without a single weapon above 463 in the raid. Literally no epic weapons from LFR or normal raids. And by killed I literally mean *milliseconds* before the enrage. As in the boss was raising his hand to wipe us.

    We were wiping the week before at <5% (which is like <2% due to how the fight works). If we had one less valor item, we probably would have wiped. Definitely would have wiped without all of the valor items and the two exalted Golden Lotus/Klaxxi items. This is using flasks, potion, and 300 stat food (which costs us 1200g per pull for the food).

    "Even if you feel the need to do them, you only need to get Golden Lotus and Klaxxi to Revered. That’s a couple of weeks worth of dailies. Its not *that* bad."

    If by "revered" you mean "exalted," sure. Both of those factions gave 489 items (ring and neck) guaranteed for "free" (no valor cost) at exalted.

    • November 7, 2012 at 8:36 am

      “If by “revered” you mean “exalted,” sure. Both of those factions gave 489 items (ring and neck) guaranteed for “free” (no valor cost) at exalted.”

      I did some checking of the top guilds as listed on GuildOx. A vast number of those raiders stopped at Revered with Golden Lotus and Klaxxi.

      Clearly those items at Exalted were not mandatory for the top guilds.

      The need for epic gear is in part what separates the top guilds from each other. I suspect that DREAM Paragon, probably the #1 guild, needed very few epics to clear heroic content since they cleared content before they could possibly have earned many epics. Lets say that the #100 guild needed a handful of epics per person. Your guild, a very high achieving guild, had to work to get to Exalted to get those extra few epics. My guild, not a hard-charging raid guild, would need full sets of normal-mode raid epics to even think about setting foot in a heroic raid.

      Lets say that you stopped doing dailies at Revered and didn’t get those extra few Valor items this week. Instead of beating Heroic Gara’jal this week, you would have wiped at 0.1%. Then you would have gotten a couple more pieces over the next week through either raiding or LFR, and you would have gotten him down next week.

      So the Valor gear may have made a week’s worth of difference for you. I know that this is a big deal for you since you’re competing. If you took an extra week to get the kill, that’s probably because the other guilds who could do it without the Klaxxi Exalted epics are slightly more skilled. That extra week represents a skill gap, and you are wanting to overcome it with additional gear. I understand the drive and desire for that, and I see why you would call that mandatory. In your vision of the game, anything that would help you get the boss down a week earlier is mandatory. I hate to say it, but I’m not going to agree with you on that point. In the end, Blizzard’s way of using Valor and reputation is certainly standing in the way of your goals, but I’m not going to agree that its bad. It doesn’t support your particular gameplay goals, but that’s not Blizzard’s fault.

      .

      As a side note, I find it interesting that you argue so strongly against dailies and the requirement for game time outside of your two nights of raiding. Yet you are not only Exalted with Klaxxi, Golden Lotus, Shado-Pan, and August Celestials, but also with Order of the Cloud Serpent, the Anglers, and the Tillers and every individual Tiller (yes, I looked you up in the armory). For someone who is making a case for limiting game time commitment, I think you spend a heck of a lot more time in game than me doing non-raiding activities. Maybe I’m misreading it. Are you arguing on behalf of your guildmates?

  5. November 7, 2012 at 8:12 pm

    Apologies if I go a bit out of order.

    “yes, I looked you up in the armory”

    What? How? I was being so secretive! It’s not like I posted with my character’s name, an email with his name and server, and a link to…our…website…

    …damnit.

    “Yet you are not only Exalted with Klaxxi, Golden Lotus, Shado-Pan, and August Celestials, but also with Order of the Cloud Serpent, the Anglers, and the Tillers and every individual Tiller. For someone who is making a case for limiting game time commitment, I think you spend a heck of a lot more time in game than me doing non-raiding activities.”

    Did you check the dates on those?

    To be specific, I skipped a week or two of the Shado-Pan and August Celestials (maybe more), skipped quite a few days for Cloud Serpent (and never turned in an egg), skipped days on the Anglers, and did nothing for the individual Tillers beyond turning in the food quest each day (which took <5 minutes, never hunted Dirt Piles).

    And you know how I felt when I skipped days or weeks of those factions? Just dandy. Because those rewards aren't time sensitive. Sure, being able to ride the Cloud Serpent sooner would have been nice, but it didn't impact my raiding and I figured I'd get it when I got around to it. It didn't matter if I got the exalted Shado-Pan mount a month or five months after launch.

    In other words, reputation gating worked fine then. And missing a day didn't make me feel like I was falling behind.

    But for the other stuff? I definitely felt like I was falling behind. That I would be punished for missing a day. And I couldn't make it up by doing more of the same stuff when I had spare time on a different day. If I was busy Wednesday and couldn't do dailies, *I could never make it up.*

    *That* is the problem. Unlike Valor, where you can still do heroics for LESS valor repeatedly. Unlike BC dungeons, where you could do them as often as you wanted. Unlike Cata dungeons, where again you could grind out the rep whenever you felt like it (even if you made rep gain 1/3 as fast or something).

    There is no catch-up mechanism for dailies. If you miss a day, it's gone forever.

    "I did some checking of the top guilds as listed on GuildOx. A vast number of those raiders stopped at Revered with Golden Lotus and Klaxxi."

    And what necks were they using? Were any of them using less than a 489 neck? They may also have cleared Heroic Vaults before it was possible to get exalted (more on that below regarding extra gear they got).

    They also might not have even known until it was too late, half my guildmates didn't and they were PISSED when they found out since they felt they were now behind.

    "Clearly those items at Exalted were not mandatory for the top guilds.

    I suspect that DREAM Paragon, probably the #1 guild, needed very few epics to clear heroic content since they cleared content before they could possibly have earned many epics."

    You're correct in one sense and very, very, very, very wrong in another.

    You're correct in that less skilled guilds need more gear to accomplish the same thing as another guild. However, that tends to matter far less in the top 1000 or so guilds.

    For example, take a look at this if you want, but I'll give some highlights (these are world rankings for 10 mans): http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/87232/rankings/players/

    #14 Normal Will of the Emperor: Warlock
    #20 Normal Spirit Kings: Me
    #23 Normal Spirit Kings: Mage
    #27 Heroic Gara'jal: Me
    #30 Normal Gara'jal: Me
    #32 Normal Bladelord: Death Knight
    #34 Normal Elegon: Me
    #61 Normal Elegon: Warlock
    #73 Normal Elegon: Guardian Druid
    #73 Normal Empress: Hunter
    #75 Heroic Gara'jal: Hunter
    #84 Heroic Elegon: Warlock
    #87 Normal Vizier: Warlock
    #92 Normal Vizier: Prot Warrior
    #92 Normal Gara'jal: Mage
    #94 Normal Empress: Guardian Druid
    #95 Heroic Elegon: Prot Warrior
    #95 Heroic Elegon: DK
    #96 Heroic Stone Guard: Mage

    That's just for the records my guild holds in the top 100 spots, and 200 are maintained (too lazy to go all the way to 200, though). In short, the skill gap between the top guilds and my guild is miniscule (probably less than a percent or two), the primary difference is raiding so much in comparison.

    Speaking of raiding so much in comparison, that brings me to the second point where you mentioned Paragon clearly needed fewer epics to beat content. My guild got 12 raiding epics the first week of normals. You know how many Paragon got? At *least* 72. I know they did a *minimum* of two 25 mans to gear their one 10 man team. And it's entirely possible they did another 10 man or 25 man on top of that. In other words, they got as many epics in one week of raiding for their team as mine gets in six weeks. And when they beat a boss on heroic, anyone who wasn't in for it got taken to a 25 man where they killed the boss on normal for more loot.

    That's true for the other top guilds as well. They run multiple 25 mans and funnel the gear to people in their main group. They are insanely geared in comparison because they make that effort and have the resources of those world first guilds. THAT'S the training you're talking about. Not dailies.

    They're incredibly skilled, sure. But not to any significant amount (give or take a percent or two) compared to other top guilds. The main difference is time.

    There's also an ADDITIONAL component that you're glossing, which is loot RNG.

    "If you took an extra week to get the kill, that’s probably because the other guilds who could do it without the Klaxxi Exalted epics are slightly more skilled."

    Or they didn't have zero epic weapons in the raid. There's the Dagger from Stone Guard, Polearm from Spirit Kings, Wand from Elegon, Sword from Elegon, Axe from Elegon, Mace from Will, and Bow from Will. At that point we had done three LFR clears and 2.33 raid clears (first two in Vaults), so…

    6 Stone Guard chances
    5 Spirit King chances
    5 Elegon Chances
    5 Will chances

    On top that that…

    12 coins burned on Stone Guard
    10 coins burned on Spirit Kings
    25 coins burned on Elegon
    30 coins burned on Will

    The result?

    Zero weapons.

    Each which would have been massive DPS increases. Something like 2.5k for LFR weapons and 5.7k for normal weapons. Our case was not typical, most guilds got at least a few weapons. Which meant we needed the other gear to try to make up for the missing weapons, yes. Which doesn't mean the guilds who had the weapons were any more skilled (again, the top guilds are likely a percent or two better, but not the guilds past the top 50).

    "In your vision of the game, anything that would help you get the boss down a week earlier is mandatory."

    No. We didn't all spend money to race change to pandaren (which many top guild did). We didn't have a person or two to swap to monk. We didn't run multiple raids the first week and gear our the best team.

    But guaranteed 489 items for investing an hour or two a day? Yeah, I'd consider that mandatory, just as much as enchanting/gemming/reforging gear.

    • November 8, 2012 at 9:51 am

      That’s really interesting. Thanks for taking them time to type all that out. Its a really good insight into some of the details in the race to get heroic boss kills.

  6. November 8, 2012 at 3:00 pm

    You can also probably imagine that the guilds powerleveling multiple characters to 90 to do multiple raids the first week aren’t eager to feel obligated to do dailies as well. To me, those multiple characters are the “chores” and “practice” you discussed in the first post that my guild won’t ever do.

    And again, the main problem is there’s no catch-up mechanism. If the daily quests gave half the amount but you could do them as often as you want, you’d see a lot less complaints by top end raiders. They could grind it out whenever they wanted it and could “make up” a lost day. Versus feeling obligated to log on every day or fall behind the curve.

  7. 12 BenDover
    November 20, 2012 at 2:49 pm

    Interesting conversation there. I’ll just add a few points.

    Rep grinds are fine. Gating content allows us to set and attain goals.

    The problem with dailies, and any content really, is repetition. I do agree that Tabards were too simple a solution and ended up devaluing reputation. However, the weekly valor cap gave you an easy goal to pursue. You could spread them out through the week, or do all of them in a marathon. We didn’t have a choice of how to gain rep or valor, but we did have a choice of when to do it. The ability to play the game and progress when you choose to do so, this is a very important thing.

    In Mists the gating is done mostly by daily quests, and this presents us with one significant issue: perception. If you can’t log in every day you are missing out on potential. Any Rogue is very well aware of how costly it is to cap Energy. In a similar way, if you aren’t logging in every day you are “capping on dailies”, you are losing a potential gain in character progression.

    Let’s say you have 5-8h a week to play WoW. Chances are, if you are a full-time working adult, you won’t have that time evenly spread out through the week, but instead you might have 1 or 2 days a week, when you are able to progress. So, when you log in, you do your dailies and then your progression is stalled not by the amount of hours you get to play, but by the amount of days in the week you have to spread that time out.

    The biggest problem I have with tying character progression to dailies is that it’s just not feasible to assume people can log in every day.

    I think there is a solution to this, and it’s probably just giving you more options. Maybe you could gain “tabard reputation” a certain amount, have killing mobs granting rep (like in the Legendary questline), have mobs drop random items to turn in every now and then and so on.. What I’m saying, even if dailies were the most efficient way of gaining rep, there should be other ways as well. Once there is, it’s just a matter of balancing the numbers.

    • November 22, 2012 at 12:13 am

      I still stand by the statement that, if you feel like you have to log in every day that’s a decision/problem/issue on the player end, not Blizzard’s end. If you miss a few days and feel like that’s a problem, then you’re either a super-hardcore raider or you’re way too obsessive.

      I have a raiding toon that has done zero dailies and was raid-ready in less than a week after hitting 90. Zero. Its possible.


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Dinaer - 90 Assassination Rogue (US - Sen'Jin)
Derence - 90 Prot/Ret Paladin (US - Sen'Jin)
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