24
Feb
09

Dual spec craziness

Edit:  this is a rant, and not entirely coherent… after seeing the amount of discussion generated by this post, I wrote a follow-up, more sensible post about my objections to Dual Specs here

/begin rant

From a blue post on the forums about the process of switching specs…

You literally just click a button, and after a 5 second cast, your specializations, glyphs, and action bars swap. You must be out of combat, and it still cannot be used in battlegrounds or arenas. There is currently no cooldown on the ability to swap specializations though.

I cannot tell you how much I hate this.

HATE.

To me, part of the fun of the game was assembling your “team” for going into a raid or instance.  Balancing strengths and weaknesses of each class, managing raid buffs and enemy debuffs – this was a meta-game that went along with raiding and instancing.

Gone.  Kaput.

Your warriors can be tanks one minute and dps the next.  Your priests can go from healers to dps and back at the raid leader’s say-so.  Paladins can go tank-to-healer-to-dps  from one pull to the next.

Heaven forbid that we actually ask players to make a CHOICE.  We can’t possibly expect players to make a decision and STICK WITH IT FOR THE DURATION OF A THREE HOUR RAID.  Our attention spans are so short that we have to be able to jump from one role to another on a whim.

To me, this is like playing chess (the real game, not the Karazhan event), and partway through the game you say, “This rook isn’t really so useful to me right now.  I want to swap it out for another bishop.”  If you allow that, it removes the meaning of the game and makes it just goofiness.

I cannot see the reason in this at all.  OK, some players respec back and forth between PvP and PvE builds.  That can be expensive.  I get that, and I like dual specs for that purpose.  But if that was the issue being solved here you could do the respec in a major city, or at an inscription trainer.

No – this is specifically for players to swap specs in the middle of a raid or instance.  What problem is this solving?  This is just for the people who have whined about having to make a choice.  Want to play a priest?  Choose if you want to heal or dps.  What?  You don’t want to choose?  Fine, you can do both and switch them at will!

Are you a paladin or warrior in a progression-minded raiding guild?  Better buy some bigger bags.  Because your raid leader is going to FORCE you to carry two or three sets of gear into raids.  Anub’rekhan needs two or three tanks, but Maexxna needs only one.  If dual-spec were around when Naxx came out, anyone who was not the main tank would have been REQUIRED to switch spec to dps after the Anub’rekhan fight.  And you’d better have good gear for both specs.  Paladins – you could have been healing on Loatheb, off-tanking on Patchwerk, and dpsing on Razuvious.  Got three sets of epic gear?   Its not an issue in Naxx now because the hardcore guilds are beyond all of that.  But Ulduar is coming…

Imagine that you are a resto druid.  And you really like healing.  How will you respond when your raid leader says, “We don’t need three healers for this fight.  I need you to respec to Feral for dps.”

To me this is one more step in the dumbing down of the game.  First the homogenizing of the classes, now the smearing out of their roles even within the span of a single run.

If Blizzard is in the mood to continue removing distinctions and choices, here’s my list of demands…

  • I want a healing spec for rogues.  And it had better be equal in healing power to priests, shamans, paladins, and druids.  And you better believe I will QQ if you put a cooldown on my AoE heal.
  • I want a tanking spec for mages.  Buff their mage armor, let them be magical fighters.  And give them awesome tanking staves.  You know Gandalf could have tanked a raid boss.  He’s bad-ass.
  • I want bags of infinite size.  If my paladin is going to have to carry three sets of armor, you better give me 30 slot bags.  Or let me teleport my gear directly from my bank.  Or summon gear from some deity on my command.

/end rant

Feel free to disagree with me.  I won’t be hurt.


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64 Responses to “Dual spec craziness”


  1. February 24, 2009 at 8:04 pm

    I disagree totally. Switching on the fly mid-raid might be a push, but I can see, and have experienced times when this would have been very handy. If that makes me one of the players who likes the game “dumbed down”, then yup – maybe you’re right. I’d much rather play in a world with options, than a world of strict roles that prohibit enjoyment. To take that further why don’t we force all Priest to only heal?

    As a Pally off-tank in Maiden in Kara I was useless to the group for that one fight. I could decurse and heal, but had no real role to play, and could not really heal well due to my Prot spec. If I could switch, I could have been contributing 100% to that kill.

    However Kara is dead now, but Naxx has some of the same stuff. Naxx requires two tanks, and two healers for almost all of the content. Then you clear the wings and all of a sudden its better to have 3 healers or that Frosty Dragon is going to be very hard work. I know it an be done with two healers (hell if you’re leet-sauce you can do it with almost anything), but its a lot harder without the 3rd healer.

    Likewise you can still assemble your team, and this gives you more choice and faster grouping, not less. How in hell are you angry with getting more options for putting together a team? Last night we waited for 20-25 minutes for enough healers for VoA. The fights took 10 minutes, getting the groups too twice as long. That is just crazy.

    This also helps with the role shortage. I’ve seen the Healer shortage, I’ve heard about Tank shortage, and even dps shortage at times. With this the Hybrid classes can offer two distinct modes. This is not “homogenizing of the classes” this is choice for the players. I think it is totally viable to have many gear set of different roles, and I already carry a DPS and Tank set on my DK. I’m dps spec, but I can tank when needed. That grants options for some fights like 4 horsemen.

    If your raid leader is going to insist you do something and you don’t like it, say no. If that means you are in conflict with your guild, then you are in the wrong guild. And thats the backbone of how I interpret your argument – you don’t ant to be forced to witch roles. Then play with other people, or tell them that you’re a spec and stick t it. Nobody is forcing you to pay the 1000g or use dual specs. Just like an epic flying mount, its an option. If you don’t want it, then cool. More power to you.

    This change means more instances, more often. Offering it at level 40 plus is great too, as now at least I will be able to solo and instance with the same character. No more crappy dps as holy, I can spec Shadow Priest for questing, and Holy for instances.

    And your counter demands are a great rant, but essentially pointless. I love a good rant, and the idea of a Mage tanking made me smile. He’s need some damn thick cloth to do that.

  2. February 24, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    All of the issues that you cite can be solved by having the dual spec system operate only at a trainer, or in a major city, or with a one-hour cooldown, or any of a number of things. Its the unlimited, any time, mid-raid, one-click switch that bothers me.

    We certainly don’t have to “force priests to only heal” any more now than ever. The game has been around since 2004 and priests have been able to switch roles all that time. They just couldn’t do it every five minutes in the middle of a run.

    I’m all for getting rid of obstacles to respec. Reduce or get rid of the cost. Save the talent point arrangements so you don’t have to go through and click them every single time. But I think that asking someone to pick a role for an instance run is reasonable.

  3. February 24, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    I completely agree with Dinaer.

    This news is incredibly bad for the pure DPS classes (Mage, Rogue, Hunter, Warlock) as their spots in 10-man raids are going to become very crowded.

    I believe that Dual-Specs are something that Blizzard’s game designers know is a terrible idea, but the vociferous community has demanded it for so long that their hands became tied. Really, the only distinction left between classes is their buffs and debuffs.

    This change is the death-knell for World of Warcraft’s supremacy. It will not happen immediately, it’s effect will not be seen for some time, but this move will eventually signal the end of WoW’s stranglehold on the MMO market. In the short-term, finding heroic groups and learning Ulduar will be easier, but in the long term the lack of depth and differentiation will cause players to look elsewhere.

    If only the KOTOR MMO or DC Universe Online were ready!

    Oh, and the next big change will be the removal of the significant time investment from 1-58. I anticipate that people with level 80 characters will be allowed 1 or 2 “premade” level 55 characters on the same realm (exactly how DKs work now). You’ve been warned.

  4. February 25, 2009 at 12:19 am

    The problem with cooldowns is that it isn’t very robust. Say there was a one hour cooldown. You’ll end up with a situation like:

    Raid Leader: Okay, we need an extra tank for this fight. Paladin1 switch to tanking.
    *Paladin1 switches from healing to tanking*
    Raid Leader: Wait, we’re going to need extra healing. Paladin1 stay healing, Deathknight1 switch to tanking instead.
    Paladin1: Too late.

    As for needing to be in a city, that’s pretty much what the current high end does right now. Person ports to a city, respecs, and is summoned back.

    There’s no real way to implement dual-specs while preserving identity in the fashion you want. But maybe it can be a good thing. Maybe instead of concentrating on the individual specs within a class, people can concentrate on the class itself. Rather than Holy Paladin vs Ret paladin, there’s just Paladin.

    Second, even though the hybrid classes gain flexibility within PvE, the pures gain flexibility in different facets of the game. For example, you will be able to have a PvP spec as well as a PvE spec. I won’t. My guild will probably exert pressure to have both specs dedicated to PvP.

  5. February 25, 2009 at 12:20 am

    That should be “both specs dedicated to PvE”.

  6. 6 Thimble
    February 25, 2009 at 12:32 am

    I’m just terrified at what’s going to happen when every death knight decides they’ll be able to get a group faster if they tank, so they figure that since they’re heroic-level DPS, they’re a heroic-level tank. I think that while there won’t be as much of a shortage of tanks and healers, there will be just as few GOOD tanks and healers, and we’re going to see a lot more failed PUGs as people attempt roles that they aren’t geared for and aren’t familiar with. Not to mention the nightmare that looting becomes, when everyone is worried about gearing up two specs. It’s gonna get ugly before it gets pretty.

  7. 7 except...
    February 25, 2009 at 12:51 am

    Hard core players were already respeccing 4 times a week because gold isnt a barrier to them. Well organized raids can spend 2 minutes tops to send unecessary roles off to respec and have them summoned back after the trash was dead so they can begin raid bosses with an optimized party. And they were doing it without complaining.

    Consequentially this forces blizz to take this into account when they plan their progression raids.

    Why should casual players be penalized for not farming enough gold?

  8. February 25, 2009 at 3:28 am

    I have to disagree.

    Mostly because I can see the vast usefullness of this ability. I play a rogue and a resto druid, and for the rogue (similar to hunters, mages and warlocks) it means I can make a second spec a PvP one – thats all fine, I’ll pay that 1000 gold for the peace of mind and faster switching. I won’t be using it in instances anyway… unless Blizz actually listens to you and give us our healing spec. Or a tanking one. :D

    As for the druid, I currently don’t do almost anything on him other than farming and instancing. The resto tree is totally awful spec to do quests and kill any mobs, so the ability to switch to a dps spec is very welcome. Can I port to Moonglade, respec, hearth back every day after work? Sure I can, but I’m not doing it as it cuts into the time I can be doing other things. And when you are farming and people ask in guild chat for a healer? Currently I can’t flip specs on demand, and while we don’t have too many healers, the group won’t wait half an hour till I fly around the world if my hearthstone is on cooldown.

    This is even better than making people to make a choice. Now they have to make two. The raid leader can’t say ‘Druid1 change from resto to tank’, since Druid1’s second spec is a moonkin. Why he’s not a resto/feral? Who knows, maybe he just doesn’t like to tank. Or doesn’t know how to do that. Or doesn’t have the gear for tanking. Maybe we could make him change to moonkin then and another dps will change to tanking then. And here it goes again, only for two people.

    Should the raid leader force the druid to be a resto/feral then at all? I wouldn’t, as I let my fellow rogues to run whatever they want as long as they don’t suck at it. We even have a combat dagger one. He always been combat daggers, even in TBC when it wasn’t really the best. Why would I make him respec to something he doesn’t like playing?

    And if they would restrict the dual specs to be usable only in cities, well, that’s not a problem. Portal, click to change, summon – just like we do now, only faster as you don’t have to spend a minute by the trainer putting in the new talent points. That would be an useless feature and you might just as well don’t put it in.

    Oh, and the “this is death to WoW” comment made my day. Going off to work with a smile. :)

  9. February 25, 2009 at 11:21 am

    As a PvE Rogue that never plays PVP, I find the whole situation “MEH”. I won’t be getting it as I play my spec very well and have only respeced three times in the entire life of the game. I have some friends that this will be a godsend to, but for me, I’ve always done research on what spec I want to play, and then play it with very little changes.

    I think Josh may have a point about “Pure DPS” classes being replaced by hybrids with relation to PUGs or as an extra member. As a PUG, I’d probably prefer taking a hybrid with me, because in the even that we loose a tank or healer, the hybrid could change to fill that roll making it easier to find replacements.

    As a Rogue, in PUGS I might not seem as valuable as other classes since I can’t change at will.

    But with non-pugs, I think if you are in a guild that locks out all Pure DPS classes in favor for hybrids, then you may need to find another guild.

    The only problem I can foresee in my guild, is tanks and healers who have previously done those jobs to help us out, may now want to switch and ask others to take up those mantles, so they can now DPS instead. In that case, if a player becomes selfish and decides to be DPS instead, this will cause a huge conflict and make finding players to raid a lot harder as we’ll have to replace a lot of tanks/healers and then make Pure DPS classes sit out more in raids.

    I now foresee a raiding group made entirely up of hybrid classes, or even groups of druids stealthing into a enemy city, change specs and then go full out on their enemy.

    And to Dinaer’s comment, You want us to be healers? No way. I want to be a tank. I miss the days when I tanked Kara. :)

  10. 10 Frappuccino
    February 25, 2009 at 11:49 am

    ” I won’t be getting it as I play my spec very well and have only respeced three times in the entire life of the game.”

    Wow. I’ve respecced more times in one hour that you have in your entire WoW life.

    I’m big on PvP and PvE. I look forward to this change.

  11. 11 Reigan
    February 25, 2009 at 1:48 pm

    I have a rogue, mage, and a priest. I agree that this’d be a nightmare for my Rogue if I wasn’t in an active guild. PUGs will most likely always take Hybrids over the rogue for reasons previously sited (mostly for backup Heals\Tanks). In that respect, Rogues (our Hunter & Warlock brothren as well) and being shafted. Mages, not so much, as everyone’s lazy and will want atleast 1 for a port to Daralan (LOL) as well as the utility and cc they provide.

    I can’t see established guilds with competent raid leaders changing how they run things tho. If your guild expected the Hybrids to be a true jack of all trades before, and respec between pulls\fights before, it’ll be alot easier now. If you’ve been in your guild for more than a couple months, you should already know what they’ll expect from this change.

    As for as loot goes, every raider (even hybrids) will still have a main spec and an off spec. Main Specs roll\choose first, then if no mains want it, it goes to the Off Specs to fight over. Guilds that deviate from this standard rull would be opening a pandora’s box.

    The way I see it all blizzard is doing is giving everyone a convient way go off-spec and doing away with the respec fee gold sink; its not real effective anymore. The PvP argument they keep throwing out is junk…I predict that every hybrid will have 2 PvE (tank/healing & dps) specs, every healer will have a dps and a healing spec. The only class that’ll to have a true PvP offset will be rogues. Which will cause a slew of PLZ NERF ROGUE DPS requests.

    I also suspect that when this goes out we’ll see a combo of DPS nerfs to Hybrid classes and\or DPS buffs to the pure DPS classes, Rogues, Hunters, and Warlocks…its only fair.

  12. February 25, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    /applaud

    /throw flowers at Dinaer’s feet

    To add to the fire: this lets Blizz sidestep the whole “spec balance” thing within a class. The pressure’s off. It can be ignored. Boo!

    /sigh

  13. February 25, 2009 at 2:35 pm

    There is one thing you’re not considering when you say this is dumbng the game down:

    what if new content is balanced around this?

    This can very easily replace the “chess” aspect you talk about. You would have to carefully choose which players you bring into the raid, especially Hard Modes.

    Of course, for this to happen, pure DPS classes would have to be buffed in order to justify bringing them to the raid. Either they should do more damage, or fights should have gimmicks that make bringing pure DPS worth it.

  14. 14 Felkan
    February 25, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    As mentioned above hardcore a-hole guilds already do this. If you are playing in one of those guilds, you know what you are getting into. And probably have an alt that fills your future “dual-spec” role.

    For the rest of us, I don’t see it as an issue. Except maybe the risk of having a bunch of noob DPS, healers and tanks running around in nice gear but no skills.

    Bag space isn’t much of an issue. I currently carry 4 full sets of gear in my bags now (Druid) plus a couple of special pieces (extra hit for cat, extra sta for bear, etc.). Who needs bag space once you are done questing? And once I figure out what two specs ill stick with, I’ll drop the other two sets in the bank. I’ll probably have to start collecting grey items just so I don’t feel so empty.

  15. February 25, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    I will say that I think its funny that some people claim this is removing the gold sink that is respeccing.

    Remember that its 1000g to get this ability.

  16. February 25, 2009 at 5:10 pm

    I spend a heck of a lot more gold on respecs than 1000g. I’ll make this back in a month, and make even more money thanks to it. I’m very happy in that respect.

    Imagine that you are a resto druid. And you really like healing. How will you respond when your raid leader says, “We don’t need three healers for this fight. I need you to respec to Feral for dps.”

    Yeah, that would be horrible.

    And imagine what happens if you say ‘no’? Do you not raid that night? Do you keep wiping because you couldn’t down the boss? Would you rather sit on the bench and not raid and let someone else play over respeccing?

    What it’ll change is that in unideal situations it might be easier to make a raid function again. In ideal situations we’ll be in the same situation we’re in now. We won’t be recruiting only hybrids, though having more people that can heal is going to be welcome. That’s not going to take away from the good mages, rogues, warlocks and hunters though. And yes, it gives people who are willing and able to play multiple specs of their chosen class a leg up over those who don’t. Such a horrible thing, to reward people who spend the time and energy to learn how to play a couple of different specs well and the money and time to gear that spec up properly. Yeah, that’s horribly detrimental to making players feel wanted.

    Sigh.

  17. February 25, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    I think the above posters misunderstand my aversion to dual specs (don’t want to speak for Dinear, but I believe we’re on the same page):

    Yes, this will make the game easier. What I’m upset by is how easy the game has become. T7 content is trivial and the introduction of dual-specs trivialises and amalgamates all of the class/spec decisions we’ve made along the way. As one poster put it, there will no longer be a Prot Pally/Holy Pally, just Paladin. I’m sick of having the same avatar as everyone else in the damn game.

    I understand that hardcore players respecced many times a day already, but there was at least a significant barrier for entry (50g to spec, 50g to spec back; have to head to faction capital). This prevented most of us from respeccing all the time; we’d at least make a commitment to stay one spec for a week or so.

    When World of Warcraft launched, each class was blissfully unique. Dozens of patches, balance tweaks and QQs later, we have 10 classes that just feel too similar. For the record I have a Mage, Rogue, Druid, Paladin and DK at level cap and have played my fiancees’ Priest and Shaman. None of these characters offer me a challenge or unique point of view when running PvE content.

    Ultimately, I think WoW has become too user-friendly, too simplistic… perhaps because it is too popular. As jaded and ridiculous as it sounds, I just, personally, don’t find any challenge in WoW nowadays (I have been playing since before release). I think I’m finally ready to move on to a new game… but there are none available.

    Yes I know, Sarth + 3. Ulduar is supposed to be harder with the ‘hard mode’ achievements. But Blizzard have removed all of the skill and effort required and they are trying their hardest to patch it back in (mana regen anyone?).

    Wrath of the Lich King was a step in the right direction for solo/levelling play. I really enjoyed 70-80, but it was just over way too quick. Considering that I have another 8 weeks to wait for the next dungeon (and 12+ months for the next expansion) I really don’t think I have the werewithal to stick this out.

    /rant.

  18. 18 scaresome
    February 25, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    Wonderful rant! And great comments too.

    My hunter is my main and I’ll probably just ignore the dual speccing.

    My druid is a lowly 53 and I’d love to be learning how to be feral AND resto while I am leveling up.

    To me this only makes sense, if I can respec then I should be learning how to do this while leveling and mostly at my own expense and time.

    The one big plus to me is that learning a new spec on my character will hopefully keep me out in the field and not just another bored 80 hanging around IF or Dalaran talking gear all night long.

  19. February 25, 2009 at 6:25 pm

    “What it’ll change is that in unideal situations it might be easier to make a raid function again. ”

    But part of the challenge of the game was overcoming those unideal situations. When we got to Shade of Aran in Kara, we didn’t boot all our tanks from the raid to replace them with dps. We let them do whatever dps they could, asked them to throw in an interrupt or two, and the raid functioned just fine.

    I just don’t see the huge problem that this is supposed to be correcting, at the expense of the unique flavor of each sub-class.

  20. 20 TJ
    February 25, 2009 at 6:31 pm

    As a holy priest I can PVE heal and thats it.

    Soloing takes a decent amount of time… I was EXTREMELY happy when I could make 16g for flying around dodging dragon claws for hodir rep.

    PVP is impossible cause you have to spec Disc to be able to be competative.

    So there is my new problem… do I spec Holy and Disc or Holy and Shadow.

    Currently I am paying atleast 100g a week in respecs for PVP and grinding as holy but it gets painful and its hard to keep over 500g… especially when you get gear each week and are expected to chant it… I got t7 legs and the mace off KT this week and there is 1 hefty chant (which the guild paid for… lifesaver) and 300g on the legs chant.

    And can people stop calling hardcore raiding guilds A-Hole guilds. Just cause we dedicate 2 nights a week to clearing all content including Sarth +3, Naxx and EoE doesn’t mean we are assholes, it just means we are good at the game and like raiding.

    And if you have come across people who think your DPS is too low or your healing sucks, it probably is/does. I can’t tell you how many rogues/mages do <1.5k dps on Patchwork… NOT ACCEPTABLE. 2k minimum and our top dps can pull over 4k (Waits for flames but beleives in this requirement.)

  21. 21 TJ
    February 25, 2009 at 6:37 pm

    Sorry for the 2nd post but thats why I always go to Patchwork first in Naxx runs…

    We had an alt Ret Pally come with us in quest blues and greens (lvl 78 blue 2 hander) and he even maintained 2.2k on Patch. Its the player, not the gear :)

  22. February 25, 2009 at 7:00 pm

    But part of the challenge of the game was overcoming those unideal situations. When we got to Shade of Aran in Kara, we didn’t boot all our tanks from the raid to replace them with dps. We let them do whatever dps they could, asked them to throw in an interrupt or two, and the raid functioned just fine.

    That’s not an unideal situation.

    An unideal situation is that come raid time, we find out that our ret pally didn’t sign on because they got arrested and we were relying on him to give our carefully balanced raid which was focused on ranged, mana-using DPS a JoW buff. Which means that essentially any attempt that we might try on Brutallus is wasted. So…we ask our longtime prot pally to fill in, because if he doesn’t we won’t raid.

    Or we find out that we only have 6 healers on for an attempt on Kalecgos. Do we cancel the raid? Or do we get people to respec?

    This isn’t about trying things where the budgets are flexible. It’s about doing things where you need someone to respec. Not because it’s optimal, but because the alternative is hours of wiping at no gain.

    I agree – it’s not fixing any problem. It’s adding a feature based on the fact that most players respec at least once a week, and it’s a huge, unnecessary pain to do so. Regardless of how painful it is or isn’t, people are still going to do it. Now, blizzard can choose to make things difficult and make people’s lives that much more annoyed, or they can give people things that they want.

    I like difficulty if it’s a challenge. I don’t like difficulty because things need to be annoying.

  23. February 25, 2009 at 7:28 pm

    @TJ, I pull 3.2 to 3.5 on Patch, and think thats in the realm of ok for a DK. And you’re right, its the player not the gear. Which is why having the same good player being able to provide a few roles to the team is better than pugging a scrub. Scrub is an unknown, and will often cause issues.

    Last night a Rogue used tricks of the trade after fan of knives, and directed this at my DK in dps gear. He also made the same “mistake” when he did the same to a clothie. Great gear, bad player = deaths. If I could have killed him after the clothie died, I would have.

  24. 24 Stalichnaya
    February 25, 2009 at 9:12 pm

    “I just don’t see the huge problem that this is supposed to be correcting, at the expense of the unique flavor of each sub-class.”

    It fixes the “our healers arent on tonight, so either we get a hybrid to respec or we dont raid” problem.

    You can argue that 1000 gold doesnt fix the cost associated with respeccing, but I will argue that having a mechanic that at least does SOMETHING to allow a healer/tank to solo as well as a dpser without having to go to a trainer and respec every time they have to switch roles is a good step forward.

    There is also a psychological barrier people have against playing healer not because healing is too hard or too boring, its that soloing as a healer is a pain in the ass. So you either decide to skip solo content, do it at the fraction of the pace you could as dps spec, respec constantly to switch between roles constantly, or (the simplest choice of all) never spec out of dps. There is a simmilar barrier for tanking. This reduces the number of healers and tanks available for groups, making it harder to organize.

    In my opinion the raid buff/debuff consolidation did a lot more to harm class homogenization than dual speccing will. Last time I checked all of the priest trees still played a lot different then all of the rogue trees.

  25. 25 Ends
    February 25, 2009 at 9:14 pm

    @Kal:

    You scenario is exactly what I’m not looking forward to about duel specs. To quote,

    “And imagine what happens if you say ‘no’? Do you not raid that night? Do you keep wiping because you couldn’t down the boss? Would you rather sit on the bench and not raid and let someone else play over respeccing?”

    As a healer, I know that what’ll happen is some DPS is going to step up to tank rather than risk sitting out. More specifically, raid leaders are going to be inclined to start Naxx (or wherever) as soon as they PUG enough people who have tanking off-specs. Then, it’ll be on the healers to try to keep their crappy-gear non-defense-capped butts alive.

    Whether or not I can respec at will is irrelevant. Not too many scenarios in which someone says “sorry, enough healers…can you re-spec DPS?” So, my predictions for gloom and doom in 2009 are:

    1) Pugging raids gets harder, not easier, as more players try to get in on raids they are not geared for, in specs they are not familiar with.
    2) Experienced healers get more burnt-out than ever at the ensuing wipe-fests and finger-pointing.
    3) More DPS “step up” to fill healing roles, which they are neither geared nor experienced in.
    4) Pugging raids becomes almost impossible and/or Blizzard has to “dumb things down” even more so that even tanks/healers that don’t know what they are doing and don’t have the gear for it can still pull it off.

    Good thing dailies and PvP are going to be easier to respec for, but that’ll be about all those of us that play off-hours and rely on PUGs will be able to do.

  26. 26 Clapus
    February 26, 2009 at 1:33 am

    Dualspec will just alieniate more of the casual players. It will create more a$$hat pugs, because the good players will just respec for runs. They won’t have to take unknowns. I rarely pug anymore because of complaints of my gear, skill, limited knowledge of fights.
    But if asked I will volenteer for any dungeon regardless of level. I used to heal, but tanking is what I like so I doubt I will dual spec. All the wife and I need are 3 more like minded players. My schedule allows 1 week a month then 2 weeks off, unless I get to load barges. When we load I can play while on watch,on the boat with a wireless aircard.
    Maybe make someway to nerf one of the duals, where the second spec is nerfed a little bit
    As for my duak spec tank/DPS/450bandages.
    To any players on Gurubashi tired og the grind just pst any of Cold-Blooded Resto Shammy, Shazira, keep you live long time.Clapus the bear he’ll do any dungeoun. We play and we play well I seriously think I stay feral for now

  27. 27 Smid
    February 26, 2009 at 6:54 am

    I agree totally. I’ve nearly quit the game once about this.

    There are no other classes now. Only paladins. Perhaps druids, but ideally paladins.

    Why roll a rogue? Dps? Pala. Stealth? Druid.
    Mage? Ok, a balance dps druid needed for range.
    Priest? Why go down at the first tickle of an add, when you can OT a mob in plate while healing? Healing plate dropped? Can’t roll on that. Palas can roll on nearly everything.
    Shaman? Good lord, you are a hybrid class WHICH CANT TANK?

    It has removed all diversity in the game. If you want armor and stam, you need to lose something in return.

  28. February 26, 2009 at 11:07 am

    I don’t know … I like the dual-spec. My guild is a small friends and family guild that sometimes has trouble getting stuff done because we don’t have enough DPSers. We’ve got several people who play Holy/Disc priests, Resto druids or Holy paladins as their main (or only) character, and several who are actively playing prot warriors, bear druids, or protection paladins. I can tell you from experience that the spellpower changes are nice, but smite DPS still isn’t all that great, and prot paladin dps stinks if you’re not the tank.

  29. February 26, 2009 at 11:16 am

    Grats, you and the bear inspired me to rant as well.

    This whole thing has been a big blue slap in my face. The rest of y’all can think what you want, but ‘locks are getting screwed just like most pure-DPS classes right now.

    I don’t mind the concept of Dual Specs, in fact it can be done to be really cool. The implementation is far from desireable however.

  30. 30 shelly
    February 26, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    From what I was hearing, you still need to have an item (and an inscriptionist) to be able to have the ability to switch specs.

    And if a character enjoys healing and enjoys dps’ing or tabking, then they should be abke to do that. My druid will now start to collect a second set for healing and will hat the ability to actually use that set. For me, this is about actually making the hybrid a hybrid again. Where for most other classes it will just be a distinction between parts of the game.

    And, please remember, it matters not if you respec from one thing to another, as long ad you are able to effectively do the other roles the dualspeccing just gives those that can effectively heal dps or tank the oppertunity to do so with less hassle.

    The feral druid in me salutes this change where the combat rogue just shrugs (he is troll, he shrugs a lot) so, I can see what you point is :)

  31. February 26, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    “From what I was hearing, you still need to have an item (and an inscriptionist) to be able to have the ability to switch specs.”

    That was the original plan. I was fairly content with that (although its still not the way I would have done it). Recent posts by Blizzard devs seem to indicate otherwise.

  32. 32 samueltempus
    February 27, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    I agree with Dinaer on this one. While the ability to change specs on the fly is a neat concept, it has the ability to really throw things off. As a guild leader, I can’t even imagine the loot drama this has the potential to create.

    On the other hand, I am really looking forward to being able to Dual Spec my Paladin Holy/Prot. I won’t be switching in groups or raids, but it could save me a ton of $$ in the long run. I know that I’ve put more than 1k gold into respeccing her to help my guild when it was needed. That being said, I’m only rolling on gear that’s Holy and getting the Prot gear if it would get disenchated. I don’t know if (I’m absolutely sure that) many people aren’t going to feel the same way about loot.

    I really see no issue with using it in a raid to have two specs to use in the cases of trash vs. boss or if it’s used to switch between PvP and PvE. I’m not thrilled about hybrids in a raid, switching between specs left and right. I’m hoping that the Ulduar content will require a rigid enough group composition to keep people in their roles for a majority, if not all, of the time.

    – Sam

  33. 33 Hamacus
    February 27, 2009 at 5:59 pm

    First off love the site! Second I disagree with you on everything but giving rogues a healing spec. LOL… after all mine is almost 80 now and I’d love to top the meters with my AOE heals of power! But seriously I’ve seen to many fight where if you had the ability to have just a bit more healing or a bit more dps a fight could have had a better outcome. No I’m not talking about last weeks Patchwerk fight. ; )

    Understandably you don’t want your whole raid playing musical spec’s as that could be a nightmare, (Doh! I forgot I’m healing now…oh noes, all the tanks respec’d dps…who is the tank? I don’t know. Sorry). As far a loot that’s where your guild leadership and loot rules take over. Make people pick a primary spec and they need to pass on off spec gear unless it’s going to end up DE’d. As a Shadowpriest I don’t have to have best in slot healing gear to do pretty well as a healer if I respec Holy, or even better Discipline. Especially with the changes to Spell power vs plus to healing. Bag space is a non issue, for Priest at least.

    I happen to love to DPS, Heal, and PvP on my 80 Priest and think I’m pretty good at each. It’s not that I have a short attention span. Plain and simple its that I LOVE my Priest! From his PvP discipline uberness, to his LOL well greatness, to his melt your face Shadow goodness. However I have taken the time to learn each aspect. That being said if you only like one aspect of any character “YOU” play realize dual spec’s is not mandatory. It’s all good.

    If you want to switch and you can’t cut the mustard your guild mates need to be able to tell you to “back away”. It should be based on a specific need in a specific situation, be voluntary, and be a non pressured decision for the person being asked to switch roles. I for one would love to have that option. That way a raid does not have to end prematurely due to a lack of a specific need at a particular time. Neither due to the fact that its going to take 15-20 minutes for a player to change glyphs, buttons, and talents.

    “Balancing strengths and weaknesses of each class, managing raid buffs and enemy debuffs – this was a meta-game that went along with raiding and instancing” That has been kaput for some time.

    Switch scene: Post release of WotLK.

    OK everyone… Tank run in, off tanks follow and fight for aggro, ranged dps AOE everything down, Healers just heal through the damage, oh we have a rogue? Well ummm…you do that roguey thing you do so well.

    End scene. Point being They dumbed down this game a long time ago. Remember when you had to work your way up before you could do heroics? But I digress. Blizzards opinion is that the game should be wide open for everyone to experience at this point. Giving players more options to Spec as needed just falls in line with that philosophy.

    I for one hope that Ulduar takes us back a bit to where you needed to CC and have a kill order, bosses had more that one ability, you had to know and use your classes abilities, and fights were epic and interesting. Oh and Rogues doing that Roguey thing. Not Raiding 101… Well except for Mind Control fights…hate em! As for now dual spec are great and bring it on but I’m gonna start “whining” for my triple spec!

    And that’s all I have to say about that.

  34. 34 Stabs
    February 28, 2009 at 11:09 am

    In both the original post and in every reply there seems to be almost total correlation between pure dps hating this feature and hybrids loving it.

    Which rather invalidates the original post

    Dinaer, you’re saying imagine you’re a warrior, a paladin, a resto druid, wouldn’t it be horrible?

    We don’t have to imagine, we are hybrids and it improves the game for us. I can see that it is improving the game for us at a price to pures in terms of access to content. But I don’t think your contention that some resto druid would be devastated at having to dps for one fight holds any water, 99% of them levelled as kitty and would love to try kitty in raids.

  35. February 28, 2009 at 2:53 pm

    @Stabs

    You need to re-read my post. The “pure vs hybrid” thing was never one of my points at all. BBB took that side of the discussion. What I said was that hybrids might be forced into roles they don’t want because raid leaders will expect it of them. I never brought up a “pure dps is hurt” point whatsoever. In fact, I am still waiting to see the hybrid that can routinely out-dps me on a boss fight, so as a pure dps I have no worries.

    All the “pure vs dps” came in the comments by other people. I don’t deny that it is a concern, but it wasn’t my reason for hating dual specs at all.

    You must with completely different type of people than I do. We have a high number of druids in my guild. One likes to respec between balance and resto as needed. The rest – no chance. The resto druids won’t even take feral offspec gear in raids. They let leather dps gear get DE’d rather than have it taking up space in their bank. Our feral druid tank has a resto shaman alt that satisfies his healing needs. I don’t recall him ever taking an item with intellect on it.

    My point, which has gotten lost in all the other discussion, is that this is a game and games have rules. Sometimes those rules make the game harder or less convenient to play, but they add structure. This change is removing one of the basic rule structures of the game, and it seems to be done only to satisfy the players who want to be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want.

    Of course this makes the game easier for hybrids, in the same way that having an entire board full of queens and no pawns would make a chess game easier for me. That makes it easier and less of a hassle, but doesn’t make it a better game. Easier is not necessarily better.

  36. 36 Stabs
    March 1, 2009 at 10:44 am

    It makes it easier to

    1) Find something interesting to do when not raiding if you’re a healer
    2) Get Raids started rather than cancelled
    3) Get Heroic groups
    4) and if sub-80 dual speccing comes in, easier to get instances while levelling

    What exactly is wrong with any of that?

    The game IS indeed too easy now but not because of hybrids – it’s simply that the content is entry level. With Ulduar the game will get harder because there is moderately hard raid content to play while getting easier because of dual speccing (and because of buffs to Rogue dps too but I don’t see you objecting to them).

    WoW has always been short of healers. It was short of them at 60 when every raiding Priest Druid Paladin or Shammy was a healer (just about). It was short of them in TBC when the numbers in those classes remained low while the percentage who healed shrunk. It’s low now while those classes have become amongst the most populated.

    Healing is a crummy job that people do because either a) they love it and don’t see it as a crummy job (maybe 1% of WoW players) b) they want a raid spot or c) they are high achievers who see healing as a key part of group success and want it done perfectly.

    If Blizzard decide to cancel dual spec based on the feedback of players such as yourself many many people, especially pure dps are going to struggle to find raid and 5 man groups. Because if you think there’s a healer shortage now then wait till the healers get promised dual spec then have it snatched away from them.

    I’m an ex-healer. I’m not playing a tank-specced DK and I already have dual spec to all intents and purposes. When not tanking I click a button and I’m dps. It’s as simple as moving from Frost Presence to Blood Presence. Dual spec is already in the game.

    As for whether I read your post or not, Dinaer let me quote it back to you:
    “Are you a paladin or warrior in a progression-minded raiding guild? ”
    “Imagine that you are a resto druid.”

    YOU are the person claiming to speak for hybrids despite the fact you don’t play one.

    Your objections seem frankly ridiculous.

    You claim people are not making choices. Well when I rolled my paladin I did make a choice, I choose Paladin. Later on I ended up as Healbot until I got fed up of it. Then I made another choice, I stopped playing the character.

    A paladin is a class capable of performing multiple roles just as a Rogue is a class capable of using multiple poisons. If you start off the night with Instant and Deadly then switch to Mind-numbing and Crippling do people start telling you to make up your damn mind? Stop switching poisons, just make a damn choice and stick with it! No? Then please extend the same courtesy to other people. It’s none of your business how they play their characters unless you are leading the raid.

    Next you complain about bagspace. Not your bagspace, someone else’s bagspace. If some dude wants to do two jobs and uses 16 of his 104 bag slots to support it why are you getting upset?? Just mind your own business.

    On that point and with regard to the resto druid point you assume dictatorial raid leaders ordering people into roles they don’t want to do. If someone is in this situation they should just change guilds. And in any event isn’t that what healbotting is for many people? Matticus described how his guild will handle it, people will have a main spec, same as before. No question of dragooning people into roles they don’t want to play. And if you don’t want a role just don’t collect gear for it, simple. A tiny amount of players will genuinely be upset that they have to role-switch. In a typical situation a raid leader might ask for one volunteer to go healer for a fight. If it’s a fight you just wiped on many tanks or dps would be happy to help out rather than wipe again or see the raid cancelled. Again I dispute your right as a Rogue to get upset on behalf of other people. You don’t represent druids warriors and paladins so please don’t condemn dual specs on our behalf.

    Your next point is about dumbing down the game. Have you done Sarth + 3 yet? That’s a very hard fight and it makes little difference which class you play. You need to do your class functions AND dodge lava walls AND move out of void zones AND not wander in front of a drake. Screw up on any one of those and you probably cause a wipe. It’s the same for every class, every spec. The difficulty of content has very little to do with the flexibility of hybrids. The flexibility of hybrids make it easier to kill raid bosses but only in the sense it would be easier to kill raid bosses if you have a pool of 20 tanks 50 healers and 100 dpsers to pick 25 from. You won’t cancel raids because one of your tanks didn’t log on. It makes it organisationally easier, it means that some offtanks will be able to heal or nuke on fights where they would otherwise be useless but it doesn’t affect hard wipefest content. In a Naxx farm run you can have surplus tanks go dps for a boss like Sartharion but on a boss you expect to wipe on all night the raid will always be tuned to have the right amount of tanks, healers and dps. because it’s a wipe fight and your raid is all about beating that one boss to the exclusion of everything else. Dual spec doesn’t affect the way such a fight plays in the slightest. It just means that you don’t have to cancel the raids if you’re short of certain roles but once you engage the fight you will be wiping over and over with the same set-up until people manage the multi-tasking and the little fight gimmicks (eg lava walls). Dual spec doesn’t make hard raid content easier to play, it just makes it easier to organise a raid for.

    All of your points are bogus. You have no right as a pure dps player to claim to speak on behalf of hybrids and as the feedback has overwhelmingly shown hybrids have rejected your position. Even pure dps comenters have assumed that your real objection is about raid spots, eg

    Josh: “I completely agree with Dinaer.

    This news is incredibly bad for the pure DPS classes (Mage, Rogue, Hunter, Warlock) as their spots in 10-man raids are going to become very crowded.”

  37. 37 Stabs
    March 1, 2009 at 10:45 am

    typo sorry:
    “I’m not playing a tank-specced DK”

    should read
    “I’m now playing a tank-specced DK”

  38. 38 Sade
    March 1, 2009 at 10:59 am

    Had you considered, I wonder, the case of the hybrid class whose raiding spec is not ideal for grinding, dailies, and whatnot? Take tree druids for example. My significant other (used to) main a tree druid, and she died constantly in solo grinding situations. Just constantly. While in a resto spec she had absolutely no offensive power at all. (Assuming she were still playing that character) this change would allow players who are healers at heart a chance at some enjoyment while outside of an instance portal.

  39. March 1, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    /sigh

    #1
    “All of your points are bogus. You have no right as a pure dps player to claim to speak on behalf of hybrids and as the feedback has overwhelmingly shown hybrids have rejected your position.”

    I played a paladin from 1-70. Specced prot the entire way, beginning to end. Tried ret briefly, felt like a poor mans attempt at dps, went back to prot. Also played a priest as holy, shadow, and now discipline, currently level 72. Its on the sidebar of my blog – not a secret. In addition, my wife (who I play with almost every minute of my online time) is a druid, leveled as resto from 1-80.

    So before you so rudely tell me “I have no right” to say anything, get some perspective.

    #2

    I never claimed to speak for hybrids. I speak as a WoW player. ’nuff said

    #3
    “Even pure dps commenters have assumed that your real objection is about raid spots, eg”

    Why should their assumptions reflect on me at all? I am by far the top dps in my guild. I have no fear at all for my raid spot, no matter how many hybrids are around.

    I honestly think this will have zero impact on pure dps raid spots. If a raid needed 3 tanks before, it still needs 3 tanks, except now one or two of them can be a hybrid and go to dps when fewer tanks are needed. Same with healers… if there is a fight that needs 7 healers, then there will be 7 healers, but some of them can be hybrids. The number of raid spots open for pure dps is completely unchanged.

    #4
    “Healing is a crummy job that people do because either a) they love it and don’t see it as a crummy job (maybe 1% of WoW players)”

    I’ve heard that 84.7% of statistics are completely made up on the spot.

    Almost every healer I know plays a healer full time, and doesn’t think it is a crummy job. I must have that whole 1% in my guild. Lucky me.

    #5
    “Just mind your own business.”

    You’re right. I have played the game since pre-BC, I run a guild of over 100 players that is both casual and still successful in raids, have played three classes to 70+, run raids, and keep up with 40+ blogs on every topic in WoW. But since you say so, I’ll just stick to thinking about rogues, since that is all I am qualified for.

    /sarcasm

    I’ll sum up your entire post in one line: “You’re not a hybrid, so leave us alone.” You sound like someone who is just upset that I might rock the boat about their new toy.

    I stand by my original opinion. I don’t like it, not because of some imagined impact on pure dps, but just because I think its a silly rule change that will have little positive effect.

  40. March 1, 2009 at 7:53 pm

    “In both the original post and in every reply there seems to be almost total correlation between pure dps hating this feature and hybrids loving it.”

    I’ve played at 70 a Warlock, Pally, Druid, Priest, and Death Knight. The fact that some are hybrid and some are single role classes has no bearing on why I like the dual spec. I’m a recovering alt-a-holic, so more choice and diversity suit my play style.

    If this option was available to me when I was playing my Warlock (a very focused dps class) then I’d have been still very keen to use it.

    @ Dinaer – keep up the posts, different perspectives keep this game interesting.

  41. 41 Stabs
    March 1, 2009 at 9:09 pm

    I apologise for coming to your site and ranting. Your opinion seems completely extraordinary to me to the point where I thought you were being false. That was not fair of me.

    I think it’s very likely that despite various features including this one making the game easier you and your guild will find plenty to challenge you in 3.1.

    Best of luck with your progression both before and after 3.1.

  42. 42 spinks
    March 2, 2009 at 1:28 am

    “Are you a paladin or warrior in a progression-minded raiding guild? Better buy some bigger bags. Because your raid leader is going to FORCE you to carry two or three sets of gear into raids. ”

    We always did carry several sets of gear into raids. Nothing changes here. In fact, aside from being able to switch spec in raids, all that happens with dual specs is that it makes it easier for a lot of people to do what they were doing anyway (ie. respec for PvP, respec to play with friends, respec to farm, etc etc)

  43. 43 Fense
    March 3, 2009 at 7:58 am

    I don’t think dual spec is going to matter much at all. Pure dps classes that see this change as a threat are just insecure. Let me explain.

    My guild is not what I would consider hardcore, but we are 1st Horde, 2nd on Server, top 700 in Europe, and top 1200 in world. That’s pretty good. We cleared all WOTLK content within a week of the games release and did Sartharion 3D before Christmas, not bad time at all. We do all of this raiding only 2 nights a week, 4hrs per night.

    Now to the point. Our pure dps classes lead the dps the way they are SUPPOSED to. Our Hunters and Locks are on the very top with Mages and Rogues right behind them. We are a small raiding team, less then 30 players, everyone is equally geared, its not often we lose or gain members. I would also say we are as close to equally skilled as you will find. We may just be the perfect example of blizzards famous “all things being equal”. And with all things as equal as possible our pure dps classes are on top. Thats why we bring them.

    I am a prot warrior, I have best in slot for all tanking gear, I don’t have a lot of competition for dps gear, we don’t have more then 3 dps plate so I have mostly best in slot offspec gear. I never ever use it, why would I respec? I don’t pvp, I don’t do 10 man, I don’t do heroics. So what am I doing with all of this best in slot gear fully gemmed and enchanted?

    In my guild I am not an exception. Almost all of our raiders have best in slot gear for 2 specs if not 3. A lot of our guys pvp or respec to help out heroics or 10 man stuff or whatever, they get some use out of it.

    The only fights I “dps” at the moment are Anub and Maexx. For those we let our Druid main tank, no real reason but since he’s here tanking trash I figure we should let him tank the fights which Druids are best suited for. So on those fights I suit up into dps gear and dual weild 1h, and my dps is pretty good, at least its more then the MT, I guess is all a prot warrior in dps gear can ask for. But really it would be great when I can click that button, wait 5 seconds, strap on two 2H, and boom, now I’m real dps, not just some gimp keeping up commanding shout.

    This is all well and good, bring 3 tanks, a fight needs 1, the other 2 dual spec to dps we’re good. Same with healers, got 6 or 7 fight needs 5 at most, we want to squeeze out a timed achievement, whatever now 2 can dps, great! But I really don’t see us bringing a raid of 25 hybrids and no pure dps classes. The flexibility is great and all but honestly why would we bench a 4500dps main spec dps class for a respecced 3500 dps hybrid? That makes no sense. We want to win, and do it fast. Relax is all I can say and enjoy raids kicking off faster because respeccing is easier for nights when maybe you’re short a healer or tank.

  44. March 3, 2009 at 10:40 am

    I got a news flash for you… Warriors have been carrying multiple sets forever. This change only means I carry 2 extra 2handers. (or 1 if I was MS) I was already carrying all of my dps gear as was every other good tank. All that said… welcome to the new world. Warriors have had to accept that all the other tank classes should be equal too… I certainly don’t think you thought the sky was falling when that happened.

    But, here’s the thing. Being good at your class matters. You honestly think that someone who’s been healing forever is just going to flip over to tanking and best me who’s been doing it for years not months or days. No.

    If your spot is getting taken by Dualspecers… then frankly, I don’t think you learned enough about your class in the first place. Dedication to your art matters and it’ll show during the encounters and on the meters.

  45. 45 Billhelm
    March 3, 2009 at 11:29 am

    As a pure dps warlock, I welcome this change. I can spec for two different PvE specs (likely affliction and destruction or demo destro hybrid) and switch back and forth on boss fights depending on which spec performs better, and on trash. It will improve my DPS across the board from my straight affliction spec, which owns on most boss fights but is ineffective on some fights and trash. The pures that are whining about this make me laugh.

  46. 46 Warstory
    March 3, 2009 at 1:13 pm

    My concern is that with the ability to switch back and forth so easily the hybrids become even more OP’ed. Do DPS only classes we even matter anymore? I know that if I was building a raid I would want flexability. So I’m not going to invite Rogue when I can just invite a Druid and get more bang for my buck. To implement this duel spec plan correctly Blizz needs to strengthen DPS only classes. Or maybe even weaken the hybrids.

  47. 47 Papa Legba
    March 3, 2009 at 9:22 pm

    I keep coming back to hybrids … my current mains are a shaman and a warrior, and my TBC raiding main was a tank druid.

    I hope that LK will continue to strive for a balance between classes where the utility of being able to respec for certain fights is equalled by the UTILITY (not ‘better* dps) of the ‘pure’ classes.

    For example, Rogue utility is often underrated but their array of poisons (best example in current content probably Anesthetic poison for Gluth or Sarth adds, but Wound if you didn’t have MS and Mind-numbing have both had times when they were very useful in past content,) superior interrupts (e.g. on KT – Ret have a long CD on their interrupt, Cats spend CPs for theirs, Warrior interrupt has a 10 sec CD), Misdirect (called something else but same deal) and stuns (for troublesome trash) makes them worth ‘more than’ their ‘pure’ dps. Threat isn’t an issue for Rogues in the same way it is for hybrid dps classes (Warriors, Retadins and Cats don’t have Vanish) and if mechanics of future fights have threat as the choke point Rogues will again shine.

  48. 48 Catastrophe
    March 4, 2009 at 8:24 am

    Anyone considered 3 healers in raid… only 2 needed for a boss… Druid can change to DPS, Priest can go to DPS, Shaman can go to DPS. You see the pattern?

    3 tanks in raid… only 2 needed for a boss… Druid, Warrior, DK, Paladin can ALL go to DPS if unneeded. Its not just Hybrids that benefit from this at all.

    The same number of DPS is required for a raid with Dual Spec or not… I see it working in BENEFIT of Pure DPS as pure DPS will be taken for the needed DPS spots in a raid just like they will take the needed number of Healers and Tanks + someone to interchange where needed as an Offtank/Offdps or Offheal/Offdps. This is essentially creating a new roll in raids.

    Main Tank
    Tanks
    DPS
    Healers
    Interchangeable

  49. March 5, 2009 at 12:37 am

    Solution:2 hour cooldown on switching specs. There.Done. /clap hands together, vanish and run away

  50. 50 Longasc
    April 1, 2009 at 5:53 am

    I wonder what the point of classes that have 3 different specs for one thing only, DPS, is if all others can spec between TANK/DPS/HEAL or at least two of the options easily.

    I know that in former times hybrids were not brought along because they could not compete in the domain of pure classes, but this is no longer true. It probably never was in terms oh HEAL specs, and in DPS specs, a slight lead in DPS … is this really an incentive to NOT prefer a hybrid class that can offer 2-3 much more distinct styles of gameplay?

    I like that summoning the lexicon to switch the class at least requires a group, but I think that Hybrids are favored by this system, and many new players will rather go for the Hybrids if they do not blindly just pick a class before checking if it is doing OK or has issues.

    I should also add, I played a Paladin BEFORE they got some really sound buffs, but my Warlock became my love and main char. I am no longer playing WoW for various reasons, I do not like the direction the game is taking, less because of some issues I have with class balance.

    People usually use Health Stones as paperweights and often do not use them, or I have to produce them like a factory… erm well. My debuffs are not special anymore, many classes can provide now the very same buffs/debuffs under different names, to make it easier to create a raid group and so on.

    My friend played a rogue before he switched server and became a shaman… he felt even less useful, he said in instances his stun/CC abilities were no longer needed, and that he cannot AoE as well as a Warlock or Mage. It was not really a solace for me that players of certain classes even felt more useless.

    Mages can live very well with dual speccing due to their amount of unique extra abilities that they bring to the raid, portals and healthstones also have some use… Rogues also have some abilities, but not that much in comparison.

    Still, can this beat switching between roles like TANK/HEAL/DPS easily? I bet many people would not have gone for a very specialized class if they had known that classes that were Jack of All Trades now can switch between different specs for Master of All Trades. This dual spec feature is favoring hybrids to the extreme. I.e., which rogue can spec heal or tank or dps as needed, they are rogues, they have no choice in this matter. They did not know that the future would bring something with such far reaching and game changing consequences like “DUAL SPECCING”.

    This said, Ghostcrawler’s idea that specialized classes are slightly better in DPS, while tanking and healing classes are close will never be close to “balance”. Classes have to make tradeoffs, strong healer, strong dps, strong tank? all at the same time and switching through all three roles is NOT balance. Or you were a hybrids, good at everything, but master of none. This was also a trade-off.

    Now we have “Masters of all Trades”, no more CC wanted/needed in instances, AoE nuking galore, super easy casual (casual became a curseword for good reasons…) raids and instances. It is all piss easy convenient and boring. I am no longer playing WoW, Ghostcrawler’s ultra-casualization and many other design ideas drove me away.

  51. May 3, 2010 at 8:43 am

    I agree with the OP!

    The biggest drawback of this flexibility is that many players will switch back and forth so often, they will never really master one spec.

    If you can (and do) be DPS/tank/healer/whatever all in once, why bother learning to become really good in only one aspect of the game? Oh well…

  52. April 1, 2014 at 7:05 pm

    If you have some spare justice points, you might want to save them for the pre-raid items.
    You will be waited on with 5-star service or left alone for some
    glorious privacy. And you have to complete all missions in Tol Barad.


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Armory

Dinaer - 90 Assassination Rogue (US - Sen'Jin)
Derence - 90 Prot/Ret Paladin (US - Sen'Jin)
Metius - 90 Shadow Priest (US - Sen'Jin)
Liebnitz - 90 Arcane Mage (US - Sen'Jin)
Fastad - 90 Subtlety Rogue (US - Sen'Jin)
Darishin - 90 Resto/Balance Druid (US - Sen'Jin)
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